Page 7 | Unspoken grief childless men

Strawberryboost · 03/09/2023 10:34

Had I not met the man I wanted to have children with, I would have still had children via sperm donation

that option not available to a man

Cakesandbabes · 03/09/2023 10:34

I also hear that a lot of men feel they need to 'provide' and reach a certain income level before having a family. Yet rising living costs/expensive housing is making the ideal more difficult.

Thanks!
You are right but I don't think it's that they don't "feel the need", they are taught that's what they are for. As I said, they have many toxic issues like women do. There was a programme about deprived towns and they apoke to men who lost employment in dwcline and couldn't find another. "What am I good for if I can't provide?". Suicide rates amongst men in deprived areas who cannot provide as well as they should are apparently really big especially for 30s and 40s. Men on low income, not great looking etc are often viewed as bit of losers, because they are supposed to be providers. And many women would not" breed" with losers. (I am not saying they are losers btw). Or at least that's what is told.

It's as toxic as women being told they need to be mothers and pretty and smile and be kind and keep in shape etc.

XenaEcoWarriorPrincess · 03/09/2023 10:35

Tandora · 03/09/2023 10:26

Eek, mixed feelings on this one. On the one hand I have huge sympathy for anyone who is involuntarily childless. That grief is so totalising. On the other hand, by this man’s own admission, having children wasn’t a priority for him and he didn’t even think about it until his early 40s 🙄. He then claims to have suddenly discovered that women the same age as him either already had, didn’t want, or couldn’t have children. Everybody fucking knows that early 40s are the absolute limit of a woman’s fertile years. I agree with a pp that what he actually discovered was he couldn’t after all find a hot 20 year old to breed with him as he fully expected. Men like this are very much part of the problem, and why so many women suffer the pain of involuntary childlessness despite making finding a partner to have children with a huge priority. So it’s hard to have sympathy in that respect. On the other hand, it’s so important that more men come out and talk about this regret (I think it’s so much more common than we realise) so younger men finally start to buck up their ideas.

I found several threads in the article fascinating. I wonder what this one is about?! Why would married men with kids find his pain threatening?

”Married men don’t want to hear it either: I’ve had men with children react with anger, as though they feel threatened, when I’ve tried to talk about my pain,”

Well, I imagine one of the reasons other men might want to shut him down is they probably strung a few fertile women along doing the exact same thing. Then when they did settle down, possibly had to observe their partners emotional pain at not conceiving easily or having to undergo IVF. And IVF is brutal. Even if a commited head in the sand partner would find that hard to ignore

Taytocrisps · 03/09/2023 10:36

Newnamehiwhodis · 03/09/2023 08:18

I do not feel in the least bit sorry for men.

I have a male friend who never had children. He had very few relationships - maybe he's a bit shy when it comes to approaching women? He finally got together with his partner when they were in their 40s but it was too late for her to have a child. He's fantastic with kids and they all adore him. I've no doubt he would have been a great Dad. I'm very sad for him that he didn't have kids but I'm delighted that he's met a wonderful lady and he's not so lonely now.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 03/09/2023 10:37

cheezncrackers · 03/09/2023 10:30

Re: care in old age/expectations of children stepping up. I think it's less about practical care and more about having younger people who will just help you to navigate things as you get into old age. My DM's old school friend never married, didn't had kids, was an only DC and when she got dementia and needed to go into a care home it was my DM, her old friend, and a guy who was her financial advisor who sorted it all out for her.

If you don't have a partner or a family, particularly if you don't have siblings or they predecease you, it's really easy to end up alone in old age, with no help or support other than whatever scant resources are provided by social services. And you still have to request those - or your GP does - which requires you being able ask for help in the first place.

Exactly this again! I think there is still
a huge amount of denial about how much support older ppl can need even if they don’t need physical care

loads of people have said to me “oh no I don’t want my children to look after me” but generally they mean, they don’t want their children providing intimate physical care, not that they don’t want their children to run them tk the shops/hospital when they can’t drive or sort out something online because they don’t know how

doroda · 03/09/2023 10:38

Blondebutnotlegally · 03/09/2023 10:02

So you wouldn't feel sorry for a woman who really wanted children but left it too late? Sad that empathy isn't something that comes naturally to you

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The article is about men

Rewis · 03/09/2023 10:39

I do feel for men (and women) who are childfree not by choice. due to infertility or not having a partner. I undertad not wanting to go single parent route and it is harder for men to choose that route.

I know some men who have been looking for a partner and wants a family who have been doing it since late 20's but hasn't managed to find anyone. I really feel for them. But when we get to average men in their 40's and 50's who are all shocked Pikachu when fertile women decades younger are not lining up to them when they've actively avoided finding a partner or starting a family earlier, I get a bit meh.

FortheBeautyoftheEarth · 03/09/2023 10:39

Viviennemary · 03/09/2023 10:22

He left it too late. Some women do the same. By the time they feel they are ready It's too late. No I Don't feel a lot of sympathy.

See this pisses me off because people act like life is easy and linear and you can just 'order' a baby sensibly nice and early. It doesn't always work like that.

I was in abusive relationships in my 20s (financial and emotional). It would have been a bad idea to bring a child into them A. because the men weren't suitable fathers to raise kids with and B. Because I wasn't in the right state emotionally, physically and mentally to have children.

Met my now lovely husband age 30. Didn't want to rush children as he had a child from previous relationship and stability was key. In addition, we started trying early thirties but it took us 4 years to get pregnant and I had began to lose hope. We were lucky and I thank God every day for this but imagine if we hadn't been? People who didn't know us would have looked and gone 'Sorry. No sympathy, took too long. Put it off.'

Let's face it - for most people you need to find the right person which can take time, you need to make sure that you are emotionally mature enough to raise well adjusted kids and then even when you are ready, there are no guarantees it will happen quickly.

People often assume having children later in life, or not at all is just due to 'selfish' putting it off. Just goes to show you shouldn't judge someone's journey because you have no idea. Just be careful when you're making remarks like this that you really do know the situation......I guess making a lazy quick judgment is just easier than actually having to delve deep, have some empathy and walk in another person's shoes..

willWillSmithsmith · 03/09/2023 10:40

Your average Joe who see the likes of George Clooney getting the pick of the bunch don’t seem to realise that being rich and/or famous gives them an ace in their cards that most people simply don’t have. An average man of fifty on an average salary and average health can’t possibly believe they have the same chances unless they’re delusional.

Mummy08m · 03/09/2023 10:40

doroda · 03/09/2023 10:38

The article is about men

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Yep... it's the Guardian...!

I can't tell whether they even knew they were painting this man in such an unsympathetic light

Cadburysucks · 03/09/2023 10:42

People think that they have all the time to do these things, but there’s only a small time frame to marry someone decent, have kids. Some cultures theres a pressure on the man/woman to get married after getting a degree/career, not so much now as I know a few who have left it too late to get married and are struggling to get pregnant.

continentallentil · 03/09/2023 10:42

FloweryName · 03/09/2023 08:25

I think the same as I would after reading an article about a woman who couldn’t have the family she wanted. It’s just sad for them.

Its nice that it is being recognised that these things are a struggle for men too.

This

I think it’s Denmark where there’s been an education programme in schools to get teens to think about what family they want to have and when they’d need to get on with it, because of the drop in birth rate, not because people don’t want to have kids but because they don’t get to it.

Wiccan · 03/09/2023 10:42

CurlewKate · 03/09/2023 08:28

I feel sorry for anyone whose life doesn't turn out the way they want it to. However, I find it hard to sympathise with anyone of either sex who regrets not having children because it means they will regret ending up "old and alone." Maybe they would have been better nurturing their relationships when they were young.

I really do agree . I think this guy has just realised he's lonely and it's too late . Trust me , having kids does not fill that gap . They will have their own life . It's not the lovely big close family fairy tale that it's made out to be and let's face it he wouldn't have been the one doing all the work anyway and from what he's said he had more than enough chances. This is just being lonely and to be honest he sounds like a 72 year incel " I didn't have any kids and it's the woman's fault ".

CurlewKate · 03/09/2023 10:43

I think I might feel more sympathy for him if there were more men as single parents. Men tend to want children- but are happy to leave women to look after them.

FlyingSoap · 03/09/2023 10:44

Blondebutnotlegally · 03/09/2023 10:10

I agree with this. However I think it's also to do with expectations from society. People on mn always go on about it being stupid to have kids before you can reasonably afford to. It's not ideal to have them before saving for a house as its hard to do it at the same time. You need to be able to afford childcare so have a minimum of 1.5 grand disposable income a month. You likely aren't going to be able to do that until you are a chunk into your career etc etc. So you are looking at 30 before you even start thinking about it for most. Let's hope you have met someone too!

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Yes. Exactly. I think some compromise has to be made

We are early/mid twenties yet TTC soon, we do still rent but its a secure tenancy and the rent won’t likely go up and it turns out at the moment its cheaper than mortgage rates anyway. We have the deposit for when the market has calmed a bit

Most people I know ie of my parents generation and the one above mine lived in a small house with their first child and just cut their cloth. We will do our best and have two decent incomes and we’ll be married. You just have to decide what you’d rather I guess, doing it when the time might not be perfect or waiting for the perfect time but possibly encountering other issues like meeting the right person and your body clock!

Isitsixoclockalready · 03/09/2023 10:44

Newnamehiwhodis · 03/09/2023 08:18

I do not feel in the least bit sorry for men.

Nice addition to the debate there.

ruby1957 · 03/09/2023 10:47

cheezncrackers · 03/09/2023 10:30

Re: care in old age/expectations of children stepping up. I think it's less about practical care and more about having younger people who will just help you to navigate things as you get into old age. My DM's old school friend never married, didn't had kids, was an only DC and when she got dementia and needed to go into a care home it was my DM, her old friend, and a guy who was her financial advisor who sorted it all out for her.

If you don't have a partner or a family, particularly if you don't have siblings or they predecease you, it's really easy to end up alone in old age, with no help or support other than whatever scant resources are provided by social services. And you still have to request those - or your GP does - which requires you being able ask for help in the first place.

Do any of us imagine - men or women - that our older life will be full of loving families who will be there for you.

Sadly we live in a very selfish age and even in coupledom one of you will die, become ill first.

Most over 80s live alone not in a cosy family setting.

I am quite upset that so many people (maybe it is just the MN set) take the attitude 'it is your own bed so you will just have to lie on it '- your fault (especially if it is a man).
We are all human.

Alycidon · 03/09/2023 10:48

This (from the book preview) is a bit strange - he takes great exception to a friend talking about how well her children are doing. I can understand it might be triggering for him but he's taking it as a personal affront.

GonnaGetGoingReturns · 03/09/2023 10:48

I can’t give him headspace really as I’m in a similar position as a childless woman. But I’ve got over it.

I do an ex close male platonic friend of mine who’s 5 years older than me and he kept on putting off fatherhood for ages. He’s now married to a younger model but no idea if he has children. Recently met a man (just a friend!) who was kidding himself that a 53 year old man, no job, did have a flat but not great looking either, would meet a fertile woman and have kids with her.

Men do panic around the late 30s/40s mark if they haven’t had kids and wanted to.

Holly60 · 03/09/2023 10:50

NeverDropYourMooncup · 03/09/2023 08:22

Interesting closing:

there’s an overwhelming sense of loneliness and fear out there about who is going to be there for these men, when they’re old and all alone

Too busy not wanting children until they can't get a younger woman interested - and then it's regret they don't have anybody to take care of their needs.

Edited

Gosh is that really what you think of people who are childless?? That it happens to them simply because they leave it too late?

I've read a lot of posts on here from childless people and it seems to happen for lots of reasons...

Holly60 · 03/09/2023 10:51

StoatofDisarray · 03/09/2023 08:25

The article doesn't seem to explain why he's in the position he's in, so no comment! If he was infertile I would get it but that doesn't seem to be the case.

So the only reason someone should be childless is if they are physically unable to have them???

I'm sure a lot of childless women will be glad you feel like this ...

Holly60 · 03/09/2023 10:52

OnlyFoolsnMothers · 03/09/2023 08:26

No sympathy- a man who knows he has all the time in the world left it as late as possible hoping a woman would be available and able at 40 or that he could pull someone younger. Tough.

Yep I agree I never feel sorry for women who are childless over 40. They just left it too late ...

Justneedagirlname · 03/09/2023 10:53

Needanewnamebeingwatched · 03/09/2023 08:18

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/aug/28/unspoken-grief-childless-men

What are you thoughts on this report from a man who never had children and regrets it bitterly

Of course I feel sad for them, as I would feel sad for women. No question about it, really.

Tandora · 03/09/2023 10:53

Theeyeballsinthesky · 03/09/2023 10:33

I wondered thar too @Tandora tje only thing I could think of is that because men without children are supposed to have “escaped”, no dreadful woman had been able to “trap them” into kids 🙄 that he’s supposed to have an amazing brilliant life with no complaints

by telling them actually he’s miserable without a family, he’s going against the whole narrative about single men without kids live the best life & that actually it’s fathers who have it bettsr

i dunno - it’s the only thing I can think of

maybe it’s a bit like when in the past I’ve talked to mothers (not all mothers!) about being childless and they say “ooooh you can have one of mine/at least you get a lie in” implying my life is something they want when you know full well their children are the centre of the life & they’d rather die than be without them

Omg this makes so much sense: I think you are right, it must be this 😡. So important to shift these harmful narratives and they are the route of so many social and gender inequalities .

Cheatingquestion · 03/09/2023 10:53

Viviennemary
He left it too late. Some women do the same. By the time they feel they are ready It's too late. No I Don't feel a lot of sympathy.

you haven’t tried dating in London then. Most men are shagging around and totally non committal until it’s too late. Very difficult for many women.