Police shoot pregnant woman dead (USA)

[SuddenlyOld]

Ok America, since when did it become normal for police officers to point guns at pregnant women accused of shoplifting?
She didn't have a weapon or get violent. Turns out she hadn't stolen anything either.
If I was black in America I'd be scared to go out 😪😪😪
This is probably the worst thing I've seen ever.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-66690408

It took him less than a minute, to get involved and shoot her. Less than a minute!

He came in front of the car, saw her turn the wheel, drew his weapon and put a hand on the hood. Then he shot her.

He's not been bumped with force, he's leaning over to stop her and then shoot.

Less than a minute, 30 something seconds. He wasn't even dealing with the incident, he was helping someone get in their locked car.

The question is which policies or laws do his actions break? If he is to be held accountable, it has to be based on breaking a policy or law. It isn't going to be based on public musing about how fast he should have been able to jump back or how much fear he should or shouldn't have felt in that moment. There is no morality court. If he didn't break any department policies or any laws, then it would be a civil case and police have qualified immunity in Ohio.

They have suspicion of a crime which in America allows you to detain a person. If the detained person tries to flee, they can stop them as that is a crime in itself. If the person hits an officer with a car, that presents a further danger (cars are considered deadly weapons) and likely under their policies justicies the use of force. They look at legal justification. I have watched a lot of American crime shows and it seems very common for a very minor initial issue to escalate quiclly as the person breaks various other laws in their response to the initial contact by police. It seems many people get taken to jail with multiple felony charges despite the initial contact being for almost nothing or a very simple matter.

As I said they may have broken policy for how fast they had their guns out or for the protocol for petty theft.

I am pretty sure he shot after the car hit him not before. It isn't apparent that he was leaning over the car to shoot her before she moved the car and hit him.

Clearly the policies and laws in Ohio are dangerous, and need a serious review. Which won't happen. Most likely the murderer will receive a medal for bravery or similar.

People are right on one thing. We don't see the interactions where things go well. Where the police communicate, deescalate etc and things go peacefully.

Maybe we should see more of those so the police can see what to do to ensure things go well.

Even at the start, the opening conversation was aggressive. Knocking loudly on the window and yelling "Stop the car, get out".
"Get out"
"No get out"

So aggressive. No attempt to listen, deescalate.

There are lots of youtube channels filled with body cam footage of good policing. But those don't go viral.

This is the first unarmed black woman killed by police in Ohio since WaPo started their database in 2015. Ohio police had killed two armed black women during that 9 year period (one in 2016 who had a gun and one in 2021 who had a knife).

This seems to be an isolated incident.

Why should they? That's the police acting as they're supposed to do.

There are lots of youtube channels filled with body cam footage of good policing. But those don't go viral.

of course they don't.

aoirse82 · Today 10:29
Poppyblush · Today 07:50

But if police say stop, why not stop???”

Did the murder of Sarah Everard completely pass you by?
I used to feel as you do. Not now. If a police officer tried to pull me over, I wouldn’t stop. I would drive to the nearest police station: they would have to follow me there.
I’m a middle aged white woman who has never had so much as a parking ticket. I sure as hell wouldn’t stop if I were a young, black woman in the US.

Ponoka7 · Today 12:42
If you watch the storming of Capitol. Police manage to not shoot the white proud boys and the other white rioters, even though they were under direct threat. So they can use other methods when it suits.”

Bloody absolutely this. Perhaps they sympathised?

Because that's the norm. The standard. The basic requirement of "protect and serve". I know things aren't great, but the day when police officers doing their job as they should becomes news/viral, we're definitely neck deep in shit.

In fact they managed to shoot and kill a white female rioter in the Capitol building;

https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2021-08-24/officer-killed-ashli-babbitt

I am a black woman who lives in southern U.S. I come from a large and law abiding family. DH and I have adult DS, DD, 4 dgc, and a plethora of nieces, nephews, cousins, etc.
Each time they go out with friends, to a ballgame, but especially when they travel alone back to college I pray.
We make sure their cars are in good working order. We fill gas tanks before they leave. We advise them not to stop for bathroom, water, or anything until they are back to school. And still I pray.
We have locators on phones and in cars. We all have an app set up specifically for if we are stopped by police. We practice “what if you are stopped by police” when we are all together. And still I pray.
We are a family of professionals which includes law enforcement, lawyers, teachers, bankers, nurses, etc. and still we must be mindful that we are black in America.
I say to any of you who ask “why didn’t they stop, get out, do what they asked” to just hush. On this subject just accept that you have no fucking clue.

This is appalling, how much did they get away with before they had to wear cameras? How many fake self-defence excuses were upheld? Or planting a weapon on the person they'd killed?

How terrifying to be black in America.

@UpSafelyDownSoftly I'm so sorry for the fear your family must face just going about your daily lives.

Do you mind if I ask if you've ever thought of emigrating? I live in Scotland, and while there are some racists, it's so less publically acceptable than it seems to be in the US. If you're a nurse for example, you could get a visa to live in just about any country in the world - would you consider leaving?

UpSafelyDownSoftly
Each time they go out with friends, to a ballgame, but especially when they travel alone back to college I pray.
We make sure their cars are in good working order. We fill gas tanks before they leave. We advise them not to stop for bathroom, water, or anything until they are back to school. And still I pray.
We practice “what if you are stopped by police” when we are all together. And still I pray.

Are you concerned about all the other people with guns? Surely there are more shootings, murders and assaults carried out by non-cops?

It is more about creating a more balanced view to quell some of the fear. It is kind of like stranger danger or plane crashes. They happen but not to he degree that people think they do. People's perception of police killing of unarmed, complying people doesn't match in any way the actual facts. What gets played on the news over and over skews the perception people have of an issue. People then have a great deal of fear and anxiety based on a skewed perspective rather than the reality of a situation. They can't appropriately assess risk when their view of risk has been altered by media portrayal and by frequency bias.

There are 47 million black Americans. There have been 68 black Americans killed by police in the last 9 years who were unarmed and not fleeing police (law abiding citizens). However if you were to ask many people about their view of the risk, it would be magnified thousands of times more than the reality (.00000014%). Even the absolute number. If you asked how many law abiding (unarmed and not fleeing) black Americans are killed annually by police, would they have an accurate perception that it is less than 10 a year and less than 5 most years? Showing a broader picture allows people to have a more accurate perception of risk and it can lessen fear and anxiety.

Wow. On a thread that's not defending the Conservatives.

There are no doubt issues with non-cops.

But this thread is about the interactions with police in the USA.

And there are people in the USA who do practice how to interact with the police in the USA for that moment when they are pulled over.

Put your hands on the wheel. No sudden movements. Be polite.

Showing a broader picture allows people to have a more accurate perception of risk and it can lessen fear and anxiety

True. And there is "survivor bias" as we only see and hear about those interactions that end in death.

But it's still awful to see what can happen and how the police can act and behave. The police need to see these videos and interactions to think about their behaviour and to see how their actions can lead to such tragic outcomes. People learn how to behave around the police. Some police need to learn how to act around the public.

Thank you for your kind words and you are a mind reader!
It has been discussed multiple times—too late for my generation and we have elderly DF, DM.
However, we are educating our young and preparing them for world travel/living opportunities. We are looking towards our own elderly care so as not to burden them. We already have several who have flown the coop and they will establish themselves and pave the way for the rest.
We will care for our elderly and have the satisfaction of knowing that our offspring will make the wider world better world a better place than the so called “land of the free.”
Perhaps some of them will make their way to Scotland. I’ll certainly be telling our healthcare professionals of what you’ve said here.

Put your hands on the wheel. No sudden movements. Be polite.

Always say what you are doing and ask permission to do it.

cakeorwine
But this thread is about the interactions with police in the USA

Is the poster up thread allowed to mention Sarah Everard - or is that against your rules as well?

Just surprised to see you on a thread that's not about the Conservatives.
And late at night on a Saturday as well....

68 black Americans killed by police in the last 9 years who were unarmed and not fleeing police (law abiding citizens).

That's a big assumption to make. That anyone fleeing is not law abiding, or somehow guilty.

I didn't make that assumption.

The point is that if someone thinks that being stopped by police means a high risk of being shot they might flee thinking that would keep them safer. In reality just staying and not fleeing is going to keep you alive 99.999999% of the time. Knowing facts can help people better assess risk and reduce fear and anxiety and fear driven reactions and in doing so, increase their safety.