Police shoot pregnant woman dead (USA)

[SuddenlyOld]

Ok America, since when did it become normal for police officers to point guns at pregnant women accused of shoplifting?
She didn't have a weapon or get violent. Turns out she hadn't stolen anything either.
If I was black in America I'd be scared to go out 😪😪😪
This is probably the worst thing I've seen ever.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-66690408

But not a shortage of people wanting to join.

A shortage of people who can actually do the job though

But there are over 20million black women in the US. Surely this shows that you vanishingly unlikely to be shot and killed by the police if you comply(and even if you don't comply). We don't see the 1000s of normal interactions black people have with the police every single day across America. I really don't think hysteria helps anyone. Do you think if this woman knew just how unlikely it was that she would be shot if she complied with the police officers she would have tried to flee? She was more likely to be hit by a car on her way into the shop than she was to be shot and killed by the police. People talk about the police needing to have a proportionate response, people dealing with the police need this too. Just comply and the odds are really stacked in your favour that you will go home to your kids.

I'm not saying at all that she deserved to be shot before anyone jumps on me. I am saying that people need to keep their heads and not whip up hysteria making people think that very unlikely things are actually likely to happen because imo it's actually really harmful.

Fair enough, and you're actually right. There's definitely an issue with US police using excessive force and killing people in general, but there's an added element of racism when minorities are over represented as such victims, given their percentage of the population.

All the figures are from here
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/police-shootings-database/

You can scroll down and then filter by many factors.

And raw data actually does serve a purpose. To deny facts and say they are irrelevant shows a major bias. If statistics and facts are irrelevant - what is relevant?

The idea that every black woman who walks out her door is a walking target for police is just not supported by the data.

That's been the case forever though. Especially when the government favours law enforcement over service and protection.

@Inmybirthdaysuit did you give the same advice to all the English women that considered refusing to stop for the police after the Sarah Everard murder?

The difference is, even when dealing with an armed suspect, Finnish police (and in at least several other European countries) are trained to shoot to wound, in the leg or arm. Shooting at the centre of mass is the last possible resort because of the high risk of death. Most police shootings in Finland result in injury, not death, because of this training.

The same thing happened this summer in France. Police shot a suspected thief who drove at them.

Set off some of the worst rioting France had seen.

@AngryGreasedSantaCatcus I think one of my first posts on the thread said gun culture & racism was the problem. Disproportionally more black people & Native Americans are killed by the police but yep no one is safe & that's due to the gun culture.

He put himself in danger there. Not like he was trying to apprehend a terrorist. They could have easily not drawn their guns and just asked her a few questions. It's up to the courts to decide on someone's guilt or innocence not the gun happy police whose aggression far outweighed the situation.

That's been the case forever though. Especially when the government favours law enforcement over service and protection.

But in the context of talking about how police officers react to situations & wanting the best outcomes, who you recruit is relevant.

Quite. One, shocking example and organisations were posting advice about lone women driving to a police station, locking the car door and checking with the police, not getting out of the car etc.

@saffronsoup nope. No one said that. Neither does every black man, or hispanic man, or white man,or terrorist,or mass shooter,or serial killer.

But you also know it's a possibility. You could be one of those black women. Or one of those thrown to the ground with a boot on your neck, or a knee to your back. Or dragged to jail and stuck there for hours until "they clear it out". Or one of those that even if innocent of any crime, now you're arrested for "resisting arrest ". Or shot anyway at any point, for unfastening your seatbelt, for looking threatening, for holding a cell phone etc.

There seems to be a range of statistics for exact numbers but ~13% of women in America are black and ~ 70% of women in America are white.

Based on population proportion alone, of the 381 women killed that would lead to 266 white women and 50 black women.

There are give or take 22 million black women in America and 116 million white women in America.

So with 5 unarmed / unfleeing deaths over 9 years for black women that gives a .00000011% chance of being killed by police in any given year if you are a black women and with 10 unarmed /unfleeing deaths over 9 years for white women that gives a .00000009% chance of being killed by police in any given year if you are a white woman.

This is the single most racist forum I've ever seen in my entire life. It's insane how much racism there is. Some posters are literally just straight up, unashamed white supremacists and don't even hide it, and MN do nothing except delete only the most overt racist posts without looking at posting patterns so it's easy for those posters to drip racist poison and not get banned as long as they restrain themselves from actively using the N word.

The difference is, even when dealing with an armed suspect, Finnish police (and in at least several other European countries) are trained to shoot to wound, in the leg or arm. Shooting at the centre of mass is the last possible resort because of the high risk of death. Most police shootings in Finland result in injury, not death, because of this training.

If you think the attitude to guns & police training in Finland is anything like the US you are deluded!

The idea that every black woman who walks out her door is a walking target for police is just not supported by the data

You're quite right it's not - but unfortunately it's supported by the hysteria some like to whip up, suggesting that every last person of colour quakes in fear at the very sight of the police

Strange, too, that we seldom hear the same reaction when it's a black cop who kills someone, not even when five are charged as in the case of Tyre Nichols

I don't fully trust the statistics tbh. I'm first nation origin and as we know the true numbers of first nation murders and women going missing are routinely covered up/data not collected etc ( in Canada where some of my family live). If you looked at the Met before the Sarah murder, or our fire service, there would be no provable bias. Murder is one thing, but the assaults, rapes etc is never going to be accurately recorded. Why do you think riots happen? Because no-one is taking any notice about what has happened. Although I agree that it isn't just a race issue. There's been murders by the police of frail dementia patients, also unnecessary broken bones. But like the disproportionate stripping of black children in London, that sort of behaviour is also rife. There's only just been a change in the process of arrest in some US states. Doing an internal search was standard, stripping in front of male officers etc. Remember the black woman who was sexually assaulted by a white policeman in front of the white judge and she was threatened with jail because she wanted it noted? There's a lot that goes on. How would people on here feel about all that?

Well no I don't think they're in any way similar, and that's the problem - US police need better training. Its perfectly possible to train police to shoot to wound instead of shooting to kill but so many people seem to think they can't.

I'm not English or living in the UK so irl I didn't actually talk to anyone about it to 'give advice'. I absolutely thought and maybe said I don't know that the women on here saying they wouldn't stop or even worse telling their daughters not to stop were being really daft(to put it nicely) and were putting their daughters at far more risk than speaking and complying with a policeman.

We’d feel horrified. We feel horrified to know it happens to other people.

Trouble is some people are too ignorant/cuntish to care or would actually quite like to be the perpetrators themselves.

Well no I don't think they're in any way similar, and that's the problem - US police need better training. Its perfectly possible to train police to shoot to wound instead of shooting to kill but so many people seem to think they can't.

Finland has a completely different mindset to guns, violence, crime, social cohesion, the police!!

In the US where people shoot ex employees, school children, someone jogging because they look dodgy the police aren't going to be trained to shoot to wound & Id wager a large % of the population wouldn't want that.

I don't go on any other forums so I can't support your first statement but I agree about the patterns of certain posters that just about skirt around things usually by asking obtuse questions. One has just recently turned up on this thread.

Whether the victim of the shooting was or wasn't innocent in all areas of her life - that is not the point. That's not what the police were dealing with at the time. A feminist parallel would be a women who says has been raped is told she wasn't raped as she takes drugs/hangs out with gangs/ has committed crimes. One has nothing to do with the other.

The gun culture plays a big part though, so if it’s not similar you can’t really compare

did you have any thoughts on the Chris Kaba case I linked as you seemed certain UK police would handle things much better?

I'm not certain and I haven't said that.
Carlos Menendez anyone?

But I do KNOW that many US police forces and they aren't centralised like here , often have absolutley minimal training. A pumped version of a security guard in some cases.

@gillygeey