To think anything I did was also his fault?

[Naomi189]

I'm about a year into recovering from my DH having an affair. We stayed together, and there's been generally good progress but we keep having the same argument and I get insanely angry when we have it and I just want to know AIBU.

After he cheated, for the first couple of months I was fairly calm. I was devastated, but I wasn't chucking his clothes out of windows or screaming and shouting.

The first 12 weeks was hell, but in a lot of ways we were closer than ever before and I felt like it would be a lot road but we'd recover from it. We'd been to counselling and attended an online infidelity course and things had been really positive.

One thing drilled into him was the need for total honesty going forwards. During that period, he met the OW for drinks to give her "closure" he felt she "deserved", after he'd expressly promised not to speak to her ever again.

To me, that was actually worse than the affair itself and I went absolutely postal, chucked him out, went on Tinder, got insanely drunk and gave a random date a blow job in the garden and texted DH to tell him.

I'm not proud of that, but he'd had an affair that went on for months and while I was in the process of giving him an opportunity to make amends (and while he'd seen me clearly devastated), he betrayed me again.

So we got through it all eventually, but now as we're trying to do the work on the affair, he keeps banhing on about how I "hurt him too" and how much what I did, damaged HIM.

To which I roll my eyes, go absolutely postal again and tell him HE is responsible for his affair and breaking our marriage and HE is responsible for betraying me again when I was devastated and therefore HE is responsible for any fallout or consequences.

He says I need to take responsibility and just because he screwed someone else 50 times while I was home cooking his dinner, that I still had "choices" and didn't need to behave in ways to deliberately hurt him.

I think I have absolutely zero responsibility for damaging our relationship and that he's lucky I didn't do worse.

Am I wrong here?

Largely we are doing well, but he just will NOT stop bringing this up during arguments which they turn very ugly because it feels like he's trying to act like I'm to blame for reacting to his shit behaviour.

@Naomi189 I know what it's like when you get less than helpful replies to your posts, and have found that it is not usually worth the headspace and effort to reply to such posts. I do get why you felt you had to do so, though.

I meant to also put in my last post the following questions:
What would he have to do in order for you to believe that he has wrapped his head round it? How would his behaviour change?

@Naomi189 14 years is a long time. My heart goes out to you. It's interesting, hindsight, isn't it? I wonder, given everything, what's holding you there? I mean that in the nicest way possible. What do you love, what are the positives, besides these new revelations for your DH. How does he make you feel now, if you took away these 6 weekly arguments?
Is he aware, that there's time limit here? That this can't go on unresolved? Or do you think, he possibly doesn't believe that? That you won't ever it?
What did the counsellor say about his thought processes surrounding you take responsibility for the BJ and your anger towards him? Can he/she offer any advice on how to change his thinking here?

Look I am going to repo dd to defend myself and leave you to it.

But I am going to defend myself because you are completely mischaracterising what I have said.

I haven’t said he was still texting her, right now or every day, I asked if you think he could have more contact than he has admitting to. Because that tracks with him trying to make out you hurt him as badly. That’s there’s still a guilty conscience. Like people do when they are cheating and they accuse their partner of it.

I said your actions were your responsibility but that you hadn’t done anything wrong as such. I said that all along from my first post. As I said, you can accept your actions were your choice and have consequences but not accept that the action was categorically wrong. That’s what I said all along. At no point did I blame you for the situation you are in. That’s a lie and you know it.

Just like you are hurting from what I posted. I don’t think I was wrong to post any of it. I haven’t said the things you say I have. I don’t think I am wrong, but it’s hurt you. There’s consequences from what I am posting. So as I said, I will defend myself and will leave.

I said he had feelings for her because he risked losing you to meet with her. I understand that, that must have been painful. He risked your marriage for someone he didn’t have feelings for, to give her closure doesn’t make sense. Is it better that he disrespected you again and risked losing you so a woman he didn’t care about got closure?

You painted a picture of a man trying to end an affair and walk away but she wouldn’t let him. Then all of a sudden she did. It suggests you don’t have the full story.

He crossed your red line. He went and met her and didn’t tell you first. He crossed it once, chances are he crossed it again.

If you are imagining me licking my lips you are wrong. That’s something you have invented in your own head. I can’t control that. Any hidden intention in a post, is entirely invented by you. It’s not about me.

Threads evolve. Plenty of people aren’t talking about things outside what you posted in the op.

Do you know why people say it’s takes 2 years, to get over an affair. Because it takes that long to even know if it can be repaired long term. What, often, happens in the wronged party (you), after the shock has worn off, realise they can’t move past it. They realise it’s not just sex, it’s the lies, the disrespect, the gas lighting, the removal of consent and so on. They slowly realise the story they have doesn’t make sense and decide they don’t want to get over it.

I think you are at the cusp of that point and trying to convince yourself it could all work if he gets over what you did. You could put it to bed.

I really hope you find even ground again. I really hope, wether you stay or leave him, you find happiness.

As I have said before, you are too good for him and this treatment from him.

@ImNotWorthy I think it would take him willingly talking about any part of it I wanted to, without trying to deflect or make it a pity party or about him or to try and blame shift.

He's able to sometimes do that, but self defensiveness does often get in the way. I don't feel able to have beneficial conversations with someone doing that because I don't feel there's any place for self defence after doing what he did.

It also might be that he does everything right, gives everything I need, and it still isn't enough. I never made a promise that wouldn't be the case, I just agreed to try and I am doing that.

I think a few posters here have touched on the fact he might be a bit emotionally abusive. I do think he gaslights me. I need to think about this a little bit.

@Alwaysdecorating I read as far as "you are completely mischaracterising what I said" as I spat out my tea. I'm not reading anything else you write, thanks!

I’m sorry OP but you say there’s “no evidence” he had feelings for her…your evidence that he had at least SOME feelings for her is quite evident in the fact that he went to go meet up with her again to give her the “closure” he felt she “deserved”, after you had told him in no uncertain terms that if he met her again you would be done with him.

He would not have risked his family after you had agreed to work to fix your relationship with him, to just speak to her to give her that closure if he didn’t care about her at all.

I don’t expect you to agree with that on here but I hope you do have a think about that privately.

In that moment, his feelings for her were stronger than his feelings for you, the wife who had chosen to support him, because he put her need for closure above your need for him to (quite rightly) stay away. He wasn’t meeting her for a blowjob, or for sex, as you say in that moment he was meeting her for drinks to provide closure.

If he was just using her for sex with no feelings involved at all, he wouldn’t have cared one bit about blocking her and never seeing her again.

@Naomi189

I think the "damage" was done when you said it would be absolutely over if he saw her again...then he did...and you're still together.

I think he's from that perhaps got a new entitled attitude that he can't have done anything that bad, because you've been able to accept him back. Before he was the bad man for the affair. But it's like he's gone past that because since then something else happened and you've got back together. Then he gets to throw in this BJ thing and even paints himself as an equal victim. "I saw this woman, you saw that man, it was just both of us behaving poorly."

He thinks he's golden now. And it's appalling. He should be deeply apologising, but he's trying to make you culpable.

Until that mindset of his goes, and he takes full ownership of both his actions, and the consequences that solely came from them, it will never work. I think he's a prick of the highest order, and the only thing you're guilty of is being too kind to him, given what he did to you.

I truly hope you find happiness, whichever path you take.

@Humanswarm

Well when this happens you make a decision to stay or to give things a try. Either way you have to go through the pain and grief and loss and anger. There's no free pass out of that.

Nothing is "holding me", other than that we still love each other, we have a family and we agreed we would try. We are in pretty early days with that, and it takes time to see if it is or isn't working.

There's many things I love about my husband. I don't really want to list them right now because it makes me a bit sad. How does he make me feel aside from these arguments? If we put the affair aside: safe, loved, special, strong, inspired, joyful. Obviously the affair changed that but he still makes me feel those things a lot.

I think he's got some problems in himself and that maybe meant we probably didn't have much of a hope of a happy and safe marriage. I think he knows I will leave and he says he feels helpless because he doesn't know what to do.

The counsellor says it's essential he take full responsibility for the damage to our marriage but that I have to care about his pain too.

Tough love time OP:

You have wrapped yourself up in therapy speak in order to shield yourself from facing the consequences of your husbands infidelity.

What he did to you was horrible. Absolutely cruel and disrespectful. And I don’t think you have truly processed that.

You also need some time to build up your self esteem - the reason you ran into the arms of another man is because you were looking for validation that you are beautiful and desirable and worthy of love. Well, you are all of those things and you need to realise that you are all of those things.

It’s a cliche OP but you need to learn to love yourself first. It’s possible you can do that whilst you and your husband continue to work on your relationship together, or you may choose to build a life for yourself on your own, but in either scenario your happiness starts with you learning to love yourself.

@SilverCatStripes

I didn't give someone a BJ because I have low self esteem. I did it because I just found out my husband had betrayed me.

I don't have a problem with loving myself. I have a problem with a husband who wasn't faithful.

I don 't need to learn any of those things, I was doing great at them and still am - as is evident in me standing up for myself.

This isn't, and never was a "me" problem and I am 100% clear on that.

@Naomi189

There's many things I love about my husband. I don't really want to list them right now because it makes me a bit sad. How does he make me feel aside from these arguments? If we put the affair aside: safe, loved, special, strong, inspired, joyful. Obviously the affair changed that but he still makes me feel those things a lot.

There's a massive dissonance between posts like the above & earlier posts that I responded to where you talked about his gaslighting & saying things that are so inaccurate you caught your breath.

Of course everyone has good & bad points to them.

A good man fundamentally doesn't treat the woman, his wife, he's already hurt, as your H has done.

Those adjectives you use - it's clear that even leaving the affair out of it, he's not making you feel that way at all anymore, based on your posts.

I think you may be trying to convince yourself that this is fixable, that your H is this person. Nothing you've said here indicates that.

And the consequence for you is living in this bitter, angry, retalitative world, where you lack any joy & peace.

I don't mean I think you should make a sudden decision about leaving. But I hope you've your own counsellor who can help you. Have you support from friends & family IRL?

I didn't give someone a BJ because I have low self esteem. I did it because I just found out my husband had betrayed me.

Why would giving someone a BJ be connected with your H betraying you?

I'm sure the reasons you chose to do it are myriad but it wasn't done in a positive spirit. It was done out of pain and hurt, and yes, your own self-esteem (naturally) being affected by your H's shocking repeated betrayal.

@Mrsttcno1 Yes, cool. My husband is in the toilet crying for OW all day every day and probably wanks about her. The months of messages he sent her telling her he didn't love her, didn't want a relationship with her and it was a friendship that "got out of hand", were a ruse.

@EarringsandLipstick already explained several times on the thread.

This isn't, and never was a "me" problem and I am 100% clear on that.

You're totally correct. The problem is your H, not you.

But the bit to consider, with your counsellor ideally, is why you are choosing to put up with this pain & grief, with no indication your H is committed to repairing your relationship?

I had to do this work too - why had I put up with so much shit from an abusive man, when I was otherwise assertive, confident etc? (Just saying so you don't think I'm being judgmental).

Being with a man like your H comes from some vulnerability that you hold, that you've somehow convinced yourself you need him for.

OP someone who truly loves themselves doesn’t stay with someone who cares so little about their feelings and the family they have built together that they would even look at another person nevermind sleep with them repeatedly for months.

Someone who loves themselves KNOWS they deserve better, which you absolutely do, and doesn’t stay with someone who “gaslights” them and throws their mistakes back at them.

You can say you’re standing up for yourself all you want but all you’ve done is speak. You told him, if you do this again I will leave you, he did it again, you are still sharing a house with him and say yourself you have forgiven him.

You have not stood up for yourself. Standing up for yourself would be leaving, and therefore being able to teach your children when they are older that you do not stay with someone who hurts you, people who love you don’t deliberately hurt you. Someone who loved you will not go out of their way to hurt you.

Thanks @ChristmasCrumpet I agree with everything you posted

I've read all your posts & can't see where you explain this.

My question in any case was more rhetorical - the answer is really that there's no healthy, rational link between finding out your H betrayed you again, and choosing to give a random man a BJ, not out of your own desire but to assuage some hurt you were feeling. There's simply no natural connection.

(That's not being judgy I promise; as whatever choices you made were valid for you in that moment).

@Naomi189

I know it's a very long thread and it's up to you which posts you acknowledge or respond to.

No need to respond to this one either!

But do you notice you are responding very selectively - to those who back your viewpoint or very defensively to those you feel are attacking you in some way. You've ignored quite a lot of posts talking about the abusive nature of your marriage, for example, or the futility of this approach.

Like I say, it's your prerogative but maybe some of these viewpoints are worth looking at again?

Good lord, divorce.

Do I wish I hadn't given a guy a blowjob in the garden? No. I don't regret that at all. I think I could have given an entire football team anal on the driveway and I still wouldn't have been in the wrong. The minute her met up with OW all bets were off

The marriage is doomed. Blame blame blame.... doesn't matter at the end of this shit show.

For clarity, I was cruelly cheated on. Cruelly. He is to blame and paid the price by us divorcing.

Your relentless posts are pointless and I am not even sure what it is you seek. You both sound equally awful.

YANBU.

I don't think you did anything wrong in this situation.

You need to leave him. Once a cheat, always a cheat. He is untrustworthy and a massive twat.

Yet what you posted earlier tells a different story -

I was trying to soothe myself by having some man tell me I was beautiful and amazing. Even if it was complete bull shit. I wanted to believe I wasn't the worthless, ugly, disgusting piece of shit that my husband had just made me feel

I think you need to be honest with yourself OP, because to an objective outsider it looks like you don’t have any self respect or self esteem.

There is no question that the problem in your marriage is entirely of your husbands making, but you can’t rely on him fixing it - he hasn’t fixed it so far. You can only control your actions and behaviour, even if that is to realise you can’t get what you need from this marriage and walk away.

@Naomi189 I hope you don't think I was prying too much. Just trying to understand the dynamics leading up to the events. And get a feel for who your husband is, taking away the affair and subsequent betrayal.
I think you came on here looking for answers but I'm not sure there is one. I don't know how you go about changing his throught process. I get that you have to show care too. And I genuinely believe you have done that in bucket loads..therefore not sure what else you can do other than say, you have been honest, you've opened your heart back up, you've upheld your side of what needed to happen ( according to Counselling). It's possibly ultimatum time, do you think? But then, you risk the possibility of him not telling his whole truth I order to keep you.
I do believe he loves you. I also know from experience that love isn't always enough.
I just want to say, before I bow out, that I am so sorry you've dealt with so much absolute shit on here today. You have responded eloquently and been dignified throughout and I only hope that I am half the woman you appear to be.
I'll end on..this is your life. Yours. Whatever you do, make the choice with your happiness, however remote it might be, at the forefront of your mind. Not his. Not even the children's.
Feel free to PM me should you ever wish to chat away from the carnage.