To think anything I did was also his fault?

[Naomi189]

I'm about a year into recovering from my DH having an affair. We stayed together, and there's been generally good progress but we keep having the same argument and I get insanely angry when we have it and I just want to know AIBU.

After he cheated, for the first couple of months I was fairly calm. I was devastated, but I wasn't chucking his clothes out of windows or screaming and shouting.

The first 12 weeks was hell, but in a lot of ways we were closer than ever before and I felt like it would be a lot road but we'd recover from it. We'd been to counselling and attended an online infidelity course and things had been really positive.

One thing drilled into him was the need for total honesty going forwards. During that period, he met the OW for drinks to give her "closure" he felt she "deserved", after he'd expressly promised not to speak to her ever again.

To me, that was actually worse than the affair itself and I went absolutely postal, chucked him out, went on Tinder, got insanely drunk and gave a random date a blow job in the garden and texted DH to tell him.

I'm not proud of that, but he'd had an affair that went on for months and while I was in the process of giving him an opportunity to make amends (and while he'd seen me clearly devastated), he betrayed me again.

So we got through it all eventually, but now as we're trying to do the work on the affair, he keeps banhing on about how I "hurt him too" and how much what I did, damaged HIM.

To which I roll my eyes, go absolutely postal again and tell him HE is responsible for his affair and breaking our marriage and HE is responsible for betraying me again when I was devastated and therefore HE is responsible for any fallout or consequences.

He says I need to take responsibility and just because he screwed someone else 50 times while I was home cooking his dinner, that I still had "choices" and didn't need to behave in ways to deliberately hurt him.

I think I have absolutely zero responsibility for damaging our relationship and that he's lucky I didn't do worse.

Am I wrong here?

Largely we are doing well, but he just will NOT stop bringing this up during arguments which they turn very ugly because it feels like he's trying to act like I'm to blame for reacting to his shit behaviour.

This!

My take on it would be:

You never would have got intimate with another person if your husband hadn’t had an affair. In that sense, it was his “fault” and he needs own the impact that his affair had on what happened afterwards.

However, you made the decision to get intimate with another person, knowing it was crossing a line you’d not breached before. You need to own the fact that you did that and that regardless of the affair, your actions hurt your husband (which to be fair, it sounds like you have done this).

If you want the marriage to continue, you both need to stop flogging the same argument to death and agree you’re never going to agree on what happened. If you can’t move past that and in a sense agree to disagree, it’s never going to work.

I hope you can move forward from a really crappy situation.

There is absolutely no weakness in calling a day with this. Life is too short to be this unhappy and facing this level of disrespect from someone who was supposed to be faithful and loyal to you. You’ve tried, you’ve given it your best shot and no one could expect more than that.

OP have you ever dedicated a full conversation with your DH that is purely about that Tinder night? A literal, visceral explanation of the despair and madness you spiralled into, due to his actions which caused you to act out of character and so extremely. Have you explained that in those moments of carnage after that second betrayal you were NOT capable of thinking, of contemplation or doing anything besides find a way to stop the all consuming pain you felt? That the intent was never to hurt anyone, and maybe if you had been coherent enough, you may have done it to hurt him, but it was never that. It was purely a way to cease the agony. That despite his hurt over this man, your act wasn't premeditated, it wasn't calculated and deceitful in the same way his was. Does he truly understand your pain? Because until he does, and takes real true ownership, I don't think you can move forward. You can't change his way of thinking either. People create narratives and they live by them. Do you have a cut off date in mind for how long you are willing to try?
I think you have to accept, if that date comes and he still doesn't accept that you owe him nothing...then its done. And I know that hurts, but what you originally asked was..how do I change his mindset, essentially..and the truth is, you can't.

@poetryandwine

I don't agree. Posters aren't 'telling' her but are pointing out their view that the relationship is irreparably damaged.

Some are doing so quite harshly I admit!

I know OP isn't ready to hear it, and she must do what she considers best. But posters, especially those with some experience of similar situations, aren't wrong to offer advice and insight.

I really feel for OP. She's been put through hell by her bastard H.

Wow - this thread is even more proof that women can never get it right.

So, if you don’t immediately LTB and decide to stay (because you have no self respect obviously!) then make sure you are Mother Theresa and never cry, never get drunk, never blame your DH (can’t keep bringing it up now, time to move on) - in fact never act in any way that isn’t perfectly rational even if you are emotionally crushed and struggling to get through the day (oh and you’ve also destroyed your children’s lives whatever you do).

I hope this works out for you OP and I hope your DH is the great guy you think he is. I am sure he has some really good qualities, but I am not sure they will be enough if he cannot take responsibility for the devastation his affair, deceit and lies have caused.

Taking responsibility means actions not words and how he behaves towards you - he’s let you down massively twice now, If I were you, I’d start being clear about the behaviors that you want to see from him - that means it’s his turn to start being the bigger person and proving that he’s someone who deserves you.

Honestly? I think your marriage is over. The same argument is coming up over and over. It sounds like things are nowhere near resolved.

It doesn't sound to me like you have a lot of respect for yourself, forgiving an affair, then trying to overlook another lie from your husband (giving OW 'closure') and then giving a random a blow job.

You just sound like you are in pain and flogging a dead horse. How do you really propose to make this marriage good again (if it ever was)?

When he deliberately did the one thing you said would be a marriage-ender, why did you not follow through?

I mean, it seems you initially did - by telling him it was over, Tinder, etc, but knowing he'd crossed that line (regardless of the content of the meeting, it was the point of the meeting you objected to) and after months of him trying to make you move on from the actual affair, what made you decide to stay then?

You obviously don't have to answer.

That's a valid point.

OP said that was a marriage ender, did what she did with the BJ then invited back the DH into a relationship.

With the caveat in her mind that he never, ever suggest that her actions were anything other than his responsibility and he should never, ever suggest otherwise.

It's incredibly unhealthy.

@Alwaysdecorating

What a load of guff. You've done almost nothing on this thread but try and implicate me in accusations for which you've got no evidence.

For the second time, over 15 pages I've made crystal clear I blame my DH for his affair. I don't think even an imbecile would come away with any other impression.

You're pretending that's not the case and trying to twist words because it alllows you to make statements to me that that not only prod at me with reminders that my husband wanted to have an affair (as if I fucking require those pal) but that imply I'm deluded and stupid to boot.

You've gone out of your way to type that you think my DH had feeling for the OW which again You're basing on no facts at all. People do fuck other people and have affairs without having "feelings". It happens every day of the week. Your intent here is to make me doubt my own perception and worry "ooohh, what if DH was in love with the OW?". Which I'd just needless shithousery isn't it?

I've got no concerns about that. Not said I have over 15 pages. I think she was just a warm body to a weak man who liked giving blow jobs and flattery. Why are YOU so keen to read differently into that? You come across as spiteful and manipulative to be honest.

Then you've twice added "do you really believe he's not still in contact with her?". You've again, got no factual basis of any kind for suggesting he is in contact with her, but you've tried to sow doubt in my mind (you're wasting your time Pal) and also to again belittle me and cast me in your fantasy as the poor weak deluded fool who's husband is in the shower texting a woman he's not spoken to for a year.

Maybe go and check what your own husband is doing.

Wow @Naomi189 you're so angry with everyone, even strangers who are actually trying to help. Do really think staying in this relationship is a sensible good idea given what it seems to be doing to your mental health? Are you always this angry with people who have a different viewpoint to your or is this only since your husband's affair?

@Lillygolightly thank you :hug:

But she's not angry with people having a different view point.

She's understandably frustrated with now 16 pages of people inventing things that haven't happened, and insisting she felt a certain way, when she's said about 50 times, no, she didn't feel that. But some won't have that and are actually telling OP how she did indeed feel, according to them. Beggars belief.

About 90% of this thread is a mixture of irrelevant, invented, repeatedly ignoring information, and accusations.

@Humanswarm

OP have you ever dedicated a full conversation with your DH that is purely about that Tinder night? A literal, visceral explanation of the despair and madness you spiralled into, due to his actions which caused you to act out of character and so extremely

Many times. Also written letters and had counselling sessions on it. It was one of the worst days of my life if not the worst, and we talked about it a lot. Finding out he'd met up with her was much worse than the day I found out he had been having an affair. It was a much worse betrayal.

Have you explained that in those moments of carnage after that second betrayal you were NOT capable of thinking, of contemplation or doing anything besides find a way to stop the all consuming pain you felt?

Yes, he doesn't think I did anything WRONG, he has said that lots and lots of times. He always says he had no right to expect anything from me that night and that he is just grateful I didn't hurt myself.

It's more that he thinks we should share responsibility for our marital problems, but his list of things I did to ruin our marriage are:

a) Gave someone a BJ when we had split
b) Been very angry about his betrayal

He can't come up with anything else I am guilty of as a wife, and it sounds to me like both those things are still consequences of his actions. Someone being very angry about your cheating isn't really them hurting your marriage, is it?

Does he truly understand your pain?

No. I don't think he has a clue. I don't think he he's been able to come close at all to having empathy. Maybe that is a very male thing but he always wants to fix things or act and I don't think there has been able to understand this.

When I first found out about the affair I think he had empathy because his worst nightmare would be me having sex with someone else behind his back. He can't understand or empathise that his emotional betrayal was worse.

I think if he can't wrap his head around this quite soon, I will start making plans to separate. It's a dealbreaker for me that he understands all this.

Wow really?

Go check what my own husband is doing? What do you think my husband might be doing?

At no point have I said you blame her. Or don’t blame him.

I said you haven’t really accepted what it means. You haven’t accepted what that really tells you about who he is. That’s 2 different things. You do believe at some point she was manipulating him into continuing the affair. Because that makes it easier for you. I get it.

I am not going out of my way to point out he wanted and an affairs and had feelings for OW. It’s really obvious he did. I am tell you that he had strong feelings for her, because again, it’s clear he did and you have accepted this version of his affair which is doesn’t make sense, in order to deal with it. Which means you aren’t recovering. Your aren’t healing that’s why you are struggling. That’s why nothing is actually fixed. Because you haven’t consciously accepted what he did and that’s what’s hurting you.

It was meant to advise. And I asked if he could still be contact because it’s really odd that it all stopped. When he couldn’t get her leave him alone before that, then all of a sudden he could.

Do you think people are pointing out massive holes in the story to hurt you? It’s because people don’t think you have been given the whole story or don’t have all the information. It doesn’t make sense for him to have no feelings for her but risk losing you again to give her closure. It makes no sense that he couldn’t end it and get rid of her, but all of a sudden could get rid of her. It makes no sense that this affair went on for ages and he never deleted a text message. People think you are setting yourself up to be hurt again. No one wants to hurt you. People are concerned you will be hurt by him again.

I haven’t needled you or blame you in anyway. I have gone out of my way to say he is to blame for the hurt you are feeling, that he is a twat, that he isn’t doing what he needs to repair this, that you are to good for him and too good to be living like this. So let’s stop twisting what people are saying, to make them into the villain. When that’s your husband.

To be fair, I think most posters do feel really sorry for OP. I know I do. I have been cheated on twice by two XDH so I definitely have the t shirt!

I don’t think OP is a slag/unfit mother/ any of those things.

However, I do think the majority of us see a woman in extreme pain and distress, who is currently unwilling or unable to do the one thing that would alleviate her suffering (get rid of her cheating scum husband) and OP is finding this frustrating.

She has quite bravely come back to this thread to face page after page of hearing the inconvenient truth that she has openly admitted she can’t bear hearing; that her marriage is a farce and is over in all but name.

I genuinely wish her all the best.

@HundredMilesAnHour

No, I am very pleasant and grateful to anyone who's "tried to help". The ones I have been angry with are nasty trolls trying to kick me when my husband has had an affair or those fabricating fantasies designed to imply unpleasant things. A lot of posters have clearly observed this and commented on the awful behavior of people on this thread.

@Naomi189 I hear you. Thanks for responding. I think you're absolutely right, if he doesn't begin to understand there isn't a future...
How long have you been married, what was your relationship prior? Was there any indication he would do something like this? Or has been unaware emotionally about smaller things in the past? Sorry I have skim read so apologies if I'm asking things which you've already covered..

Of course the OP is in pain. I was cheated on by an ex; we were very young and had not built up a life together and I can still see how that betrayal changed me. Did that really need to be said?

I think if he can't wrap his head around this quite soon, I will start making plans to separate. It's a dealbreaker for me that he understands all this.

I agree with this. The question now is how soon is "quite soon"? How much more time are you willing to give him to "wrap his head around this"?

@Naomi189 What have your friends and family had to say about this situation?

It must be very difficult, assuming most people know, as you actually split for a while.

@Alwaysdecorating

Go check what my own husband is doing? What do you think my husband might be doing?

You seem quite comfortable implying twice that mine is texting another woman behind my back without any evidence to suggest he is. So, "wow" right back atcha sister.

I'll give it to you honestly here.

Some posted here have outright trolled me. Those who called me a cheat, those who said my kids were watching me suck cock. Those ones are odd, but not quite as malignant as the ones like you.

All the way through this you've used the guise of "trying to help", but there isn't a post you've made that wasn't psychologically unpleasant. What you post takes seemingly genuine concerns, but I can visualise you licking your lips as you post.

Nothing you write is designed to help me. It's designed to undermine me. To make me questions my own perception. To imply negative things about me, such as me being "unable to take responsibility" then admitting several pages later I have nothing to take responsibility for.

What you say is put across with the façade of concern but is laced throughout with fabrications and inventions and you trying to twist things. My guess is that you're a highly manipulative personality getting some kind of jollies from trying to put other people down.

A prime example of your guff is here:

I am tell you that he had strong feelings for her, because again, it’s clear he did and you have accepted this version of his affair which is doesn’t make sense

No. I have accepted his version of the affair, and hers (both stories given to me completely identical) and worked through them in detail with a counsellor with receipts, emails, messages and actions which confirm the version I have is true and it all adds up entirely. It is you who will not accept that, because it doesn't suit your desired narrative which is "make Naomi feel like the poor, deluded fool who's still being deceived".

I know he didn't have strong feelings for her. I haven't seen a shred of evidence that implied he cared about her at all beyond her wanting to give blow jobs and tell him he was wonderful and her being available on tap to do that. My DH couldn't give a monkey's ring piece about her. What he wanted to do was get her to bugger off, ease his own guilt, get to keep her good opinion of him as Mr Nice guy for entirely weak because he has a weak ego.

I haven't expressed any concerns anywhere on this thread that my husband has:

a) not given me the truth about his affair
b) got feelings for the OW nevermind strong feelings
c) been in contact with the OW

Yet you have not only plucked these accusations out of the air and tried to imply if I can't accept your fabricated version of my own life then I must be "not accepting the truth".

What truth? Truth you just completely fucking made up?

It's not "odd that it stopped". Lots of people shag people and then stop. I don't speak to anybody I used to shag. Do you?

You have no substance at all to back yourself up, and your posts are full gaslighting garbage like "Do you think people are pointing out massive holes in the story to hurt you?"

No pal. I think people haven't pointed out any "holes" in any stories. I think that I, over 14 months and endless counselling, discussion and black and white evidence has a story I am "" satisfied with that has no "holes" of any sort in it.completely

It doesn’t make sense for him to have no feelings for her but risk losing you again to give her closure

Yes, it makes complete sense. He didn't think he would lose me. He didn't believe I would go, because he'd become used to getting away with doing whatever the fuck he wanted to do. He had shown he already had no ability to calculate consequences of his actions and he still doesn't.

He's a weak man and someone was pressuring him hugely to meet their demands and he wanted that pressure off. He decided he thought it was best and DGAF what I thought. He wanted to walk away as Mr Nice Guy, so he could retain her admiration. He liked getting admiration, which you'd find is the reason for most affairs - not "deep feelings".

It makes no sense that he couldn’t end it and get rid of her, but all of a sudden could get rid of her

It makes perfect sense. Your wife finding out makes it pretty fucking difficult to carry on having an affair!!!!

It makes no sense that this affair went on for ages and he never deleted a text message

It makes perfect sense because in 14 years I have never so much as touched his phone and he had no reason to think I ever would. Are you suggesting he manufactured months of messages? Did he get a second phone and text himself for months?! I have seen it all with my own bloody eyes! And to save yourself the bother here of desperately trying to invent more scenarios, I got it from her (the horses) mouth. Everything he said was exactly as it happened.

Please listen very carefully here: One absolute red line for me staying was me knowing the full truth. I couldn't have lived with just his "word".

I picked over it like Agatha Chistie for months on end. Every single detail stacked up exactly, and I am satisfied I understand why he had his affair, what the affair was, how many times he fucked her, where he fucked her, what the nature of the relationship was and where his head is at.

So give it a rest here. No one asked for any opinion on any of this, and you're not giving it to try and "help" 😐you're just trying to shit stir.

@Humanswarm

14 years. Our relationship was always lacking before the affair. He had pretty severe avoidant attachment and while I never would have suspected, in hindsight he was probably a prime candidate for infidelity for various psychological reasons. In a lot of ways the relationship is a lot better now because he's had a lot of breakthroughs due to all this and we are much closer now. So if I leave I will at least be glad that happened.

@ChristmasCrumpet

But she's not angry with people having a different view point

She's understandably frustrated with now 16 pages of people inventing things that haven't happened, and insisting she felt a certain way, when she's said about 50 times, no, she didn't feel that. But some won't have that and are actually telling OP how she did indeed feel, according to them. Beggars belief

About 90% of this thread is a mixture of irrelevant, invented, repeatedly ignoring information, and accusations

Thank you. This x 50! 👏

@tenterden I try not to trash him to friends and family so they don't really have an opinion. He's my kids Dad, so I try and keep it all private.