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Original poster

‘As ye sow, so shall ye reap.’ The British Museum; the writhing …

234 replies

SurpriseSparDay · 26/08/2023 08:29

I can’t be the only person utterly fascinated by the level of distraught handwringing disbelief the British Museum is experiencing right now.

Theft, eh?

How, pray, did this great institution acquire the artefacts contained therein? How?

OP posts:
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StarbucksSmarterSister · 26/08/2023 18:46

there is a risk that returning said items could mean either theft, destroyed or sold for profit to a private collector

What evidence is there that this would happen? Do you seriously think a government having spent decades trying to get them back would sell them or destroy them? And why would they be more likely to be stolen there than here?

Barbadossunset · 26/08/2023 19:02

MidnightOnceMore · Today 18:32

Because it's the right thing to do.

Works of art stolen by the Nazis should be returned to their original owners descendants - if proven, which isn’t always easy to do - and there have been several examples of this happening.
‘The Russians stole a lot of art from Germany, some it stolen by Nazis first. Do you think Russia should have to return this art to the descendants of the original German owners?

Hawkins009 · 26/08/2023 19:06

StarbucksSmarterSister · 26/08/2023 18:46

there is a risk that returning said items could mean either theft, destroyed or sold for profit to a private collector

What evidence is there that this would happen? Do you seriously think a government having spent decades trying to get them back would sell them or destroy them? And why would they be more likely to be stolen there than here?

These days whos to say what truly happens, besides I'm sure our intelligence services would have the evidence needed even if the public don't.

Hawkins009 · 26/08/2023 19:09

StarbucksSmarterSister · 26/08/2023 18:41

But if we acquired them legally etc at the time

But as I said upthread, it's not generally considered "legal" to keep stuff sold by WW2 occupying powers so why is this legal? Is it because it was longer ago, or because the occupation lasted much longer? Or because it's us?

I would presume in ancient times it's due to gifts by x rulers of the country especially if they are the ones in power at that time and if the govt controlled the items at the time they were gifted to other countries, either as tokens or as business deals etc

Hawkins009 · 26/08/2023 19:10

@StarbucksSmarterSister
As for why the difference with modern occupation and the looting of artefact's, that's out of my area of knowledge.

FrippEnos · 26/08/2023 19:15

ArightPacificState · 26/08/2023 18:05

Nobody is claiming they were being looked after. Greece was under Turkish occupation and I imagine they had other worries... But times have moved on, and their rightful place is back in Athens - where they were taken from.

Continuing to call them the Elgin Marbles also irks.

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If they had not been removed it is debatable as to how many would even remain today.
And I have already said that they should go back.

mathanxiety · 26/08/2023 19:28

SuePine69 · 26/08/2023 09:05

There's a difference between getting something by right of conquest and getting something by stealing. When Germany was defeated in 1945 Russia was the authority and did what it saw fit.

Russia annexed the area around Konigsberg. Poland annexed large areas of Germany including Breslau and Stettin. You can't really call this stealing and nobody would suggest that Russia and Poland should give all this land back to Germany.

You could say that the British and other Europeans looted Beijing. However, this was in revenge for the Manchu emperor murdering British and European ambassadors. Torturing them to death, in fact. Perhaps if we can find a descendent of the Manchu emperor, who wasn't ethnic Chinese, we should give all the porcelain, jade, ivory etc. I don't see a reason why it belongs to the Communist party of China.

Clearly you don't appreciate the role of Churchill and Roosevelt in resetting the borders of Poland after WW2, with the "Curzon Line" (Curzon was neither a Pole or a Russian) forming the eastern border despite large swathes of Polish territory and millions of ethnic Poles to the east of it. It wasn't a case of "Poland annexed...".

Poland also lost territory to the Ukrainian SSR, to current day Lithuania, and what would become Belarus after the breakup of the Soviet Union. The Polish population of areas that became Ukrainian (Volhynia, Galicia) had been driven out /massacred by Ukrainian nationalists in 1943 and 1944. Lviv was once Lwow, a major Polish city and cuktural centre.

Longagonow96 · 26/08/2023 19:30

SurpriseSparDay · 26/08/2023 08:29

I can’t be the only person utterly fascinated by the level of distraught handwringing disbelief the British Museum is experiencing right now.

Theft, eh?

How, pray, did this great institution acquire the artefacts contained therein? How?

Pray do some fucking research, clever dick. Most was gifted or purchased.

mathanxiety · 26/08/2023 19:31

Longagonow96 · 26/08/2023 19:30

Pray do some fucking research, clever dick. Most was gifted or purchased.

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For money? Or glass beads?

StarbucksSmarterSister · 26/08/2023 19:52

Hawkins009 · 26/08/2023 19:06

These days whos to say what truly happens, besides I'm sure our intelligence services would have the evidence needed even if the public don't.

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Oh good grief. This is getting sillier.

Hawkins009 · 26/08/2023 19:55

StarbucksSmarterSister · 26/08/2023 19:52

Oh good grief. This is getting sillier.

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Your in government, your running proposals to eg return the elgin marbles, why would you not consult the intelligence services as to the true intentions etc

Hawkins009 · 26/08/2023 19:57

Seems like your infering that everyone is honest and no one is deceptive ?

StarbucksSmarterSister · 26/08/2023 20:08

Your in government, your running proposals to eg return the elgin marbles, why would you not consult the intelligence services as to the true intentions etc

  1. Give me ONE reason why the Greeks (or any government) would want their property back in order to destroy it, as you have suggested.

You can't because you're being absurd.

  1. It would appear there is more chance of things being stolen from the British museum than many others across the world, although I suspect that it would be incredibly difficult to get something as big as the Elgin Marbles out of a Museum in any case.

  2. Only a nation on the verge of bankruptcy and absolute destitution for its people would even consider selling a national treasure they fought for decades to retain. And that is still highly unlikely.

Please don't reply unless you can give a sensible answer, especially to point 1) above.

I'm not likely to respond to you again.

Hawkins009 · 26/08/2023 20:17

Fair points, I'm sure more knowledgeable people can understand and make sense of my perspectives, I'll admit i don't always convey my perspectives in an accurate way.

Hawkins009 · 26/08/2023 20:19

StarbucksSmarterSister · 26/08/2023 20:08

Your in government, your running proposals to eg return the elgin marbles, why would you not consult the intelligence services as to the true intentions etc

  1. Give me ONE reason why the Greeks (or any government) would want their property back in order to destroy it, as you have suggested.

You can't because you're being absurd.

  1. It would appear there is more chance of things being stolen from the British museum than many others across the world, although I suspect that it would be incredibly difficult to get something as big as the Elgin Marbles out of a Museum in any case.

  2. Only a nation on the verge of bankruptcy and absolute destitution for its people would even consider selling a national treasure they fought for decades to retain. And that is still highly unlikely.

Please don't reply unless you can give a sensible answer, especially to point 1) above.

I'm not likely to respond to you again.

Anyway an answer may seem logical and sensible but that does not automatically equal it's the correct or most obvious one.

Hawkins009 · 26/08/2023 20:23

To add further context I suggested that the items may be destroyed eg by accidents, by getting lost on route to x museums rather than willfull destruction.

Hawkins009 · 26/08/2023 20:31

To add why use the intelligence services, well wouldn't politics be involved with regards to other govts, therefore we would need intelligence analysis incase the other govts were leverageing the items for their own political reasons rather than just acquiring the artefact's for the people etc.

CallumDansTransitVan · 26/08/2023 20:48

StarbucksSmarterSister · 26/08/2023 18:36

There are many, many paintings and objects produced in this country that I'd love to see, but I can't because rich Americans have bought them and taken them to the USA. That includes several paintings by Turner, Leighton, Waterhouse and the Pre-Raphaelites – all of them British.

Indeed. But people do have the right to sell their own property. If a legitimate Greek government had chosen to sell off various statues that would be a different issue (although I'm sure modern Greeks would not be happy about it.)

However not only did the occupying Turks sell off someone else's heritage Elgin didn't buy freestanding statues, he caused immense criminal damage and there is also a dispute as to whether or not he actually had the permission to do that since the original plan was to make casts and drawings of the frieze, not physically rip it off. This is why it's so controversial and it can't be compared to a property owner selling off their own possessions.

As it is I'd be shocked if the BM relinquished possession, even though I think they should.

The biggest problem as I see it with Greece & many other Countries, is that they were fought over and occupied by numerous other Empires or States. While at the same time Greece was spreading itself across vast distances and Countries.

With that in mind, how do you decide who really had the right to sell or give away anything at the given time.

WingingItSince1973 · 26/08/2023 21:10

SerendipityJane · 26/08/2023 08:55

Absolutely love this from James Acaster

Sometimeswinning · 26/08/2023 21:13

CallumDansTransitVan · 26/08/2023 20:48

The biggest problem as I see it with Greece & many other Countries, is that they were fought over and occupied by numerous other Empires or States. While at the same time Greece was spreading itself across vast distances and Countries.

With that in mind, how do you decide who really had the right to sell or give away anything at the given time.

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They would have otherwise been destroyed. Elgin wanted them and put the time and money into preserving what he could. He sold them on for way less than they were worth. More people can appreciate them in the BM. I think Greece could perhaps appreciate that and accept the loan under the understanding they belong to the BM.

As I've said previously,Elgin is vile. His name should not be associated as it is. But I'm struggling to see anyone else from Greece who rocked up to preserve them!

ArightPacificState · 26/08/2023 21:34

Sometimeswinning · 26/08/2023 21:13

They would have otherwise been destroyed. Elgin wanted them and put the time and money into preserving what he could. He sold them on for way less than they were worth. More people can appreciate them in the BM. I think Greece could perhaps appreciate that and accept the loan under the understanding they belong to the BM.

As I've said previously,Elgin is vile. His name should not be associated as it is. But I'm struggling to see anyone else from Greece who rocked up to preserve them!

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I think Greece could perhaps appreciate that and accept the loan under the understanding they belong to the BM

Are you f'ing high?

But I'm struggling to see anyone else from Greece who rocked up to preserve them!

No, you are clearly stupid, and very ignorant.

Sometimeswinning · 26/08/2023 21:52

ArightPacificState · 26/08/2023 21:34

I think Greece could perhaps appreciate that and accept the loan under the understanding they belong to the BM

Are you f'ing high?

But I'm struggling to see anyone else from Greece who rocked up to preserve them!

No, you are clearly stupid, and very ignorant.

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Sorry, did you need some link to help you? You could always Google Wiki to help you. It would help explain things.

StarbucksSmarterSister · 26/08/2023 22:15

But I'm struggling to see anyone else from Greece who rocked up to preserve them!

Greece was an occupied country. How do you suggest Greeks could do that, exactly?