Climate change and not having kids

[Appleofmyeye2023]

Not really AIBU, more chat and getting insight

DS up visiting this weekend. Aged 29 , living with partner in London and can’t afford to buy yet. So, really not ready to think about marriage or babies etc

but, we got chatting and it came up that his partner was opposed to having kids , and he was a bit, because it would be cruel and horrendous for them, that by the time those kids got to their 50s and 60s the world would be so effected by climate change that it would be at war for precious resources, thousands of people dying, and mass migration to find a way to survive .

im of the view, that yep, while things will get a lot tougher, humans have a capacity to make changes and adapt - technology will develop to meet those challenges, but all the time there isn’t a literal burning platform in developed countries, there won’t be the pressure and will politically to throw resources to really solve the issue- we’re playing around with the low hanging fruit currently, but things have to get a lot worse before there is a collective and money to really tackle climate change. So, I’m a bit more optimistic on this one. It seems so sad for that generation to be so “we’re doomed” to stop having children?

I am wondering, how common is this amongst the late 20s and early 30s generation? Or is this a bit extreme?

Should say they are both pretty intelligent and DS’s partner works in field of sustainability in developing countries, has lived all over the world, she’s not British by birth, and is not a conspiracy theorist !

I get that. I don't think anyone has a right to be born either btw - more that the idea that someone will have a hard life doesn't automatically mean they shouldn't exist.

You've had a seriously rough time, so I can see why you feel the way you feel. Still I'm glad you're here chatting to me and sharing your story and I'm sure others feel that way. You're making your mark regardless.

@BallaiLuimni yes definitely and I do wonder where it comes from. It's a shame because some people are going to miss out on fab life experiences

Thanks for explanation. I suppose it’s sad to me that you have no real hope that we can improve it. Not judging you, just all seems so sad, when clearly you’d otherwise consider trying to have a child.
so, a question- would you then consider, if the world made it easier, adopting children form elsewhere in world who were struggling to find parents and in a badly effected country? Would that be a pathway to parenthood you’d consider? Or is that a completely seperate decision and feeling that’s no different than the current uk situation of adoption being a seperate decision to having your own child as opposed to a substitute, becuase adopting is such a demanding parenteral route these days given the background of many children in need of adoption.

I don’t believe them. I think it’s a virtue-signalling excuse to avoid children for people who aren’t broody yet or who can’t really be bothered with the whole thing but don’t want to say so.

If you want children, you have them. It’s a hunger, not a reasoned decision with pros and cons.

Also, it’s ridiculous to assume the world will be at war over climate issues in 60 years. Might be, might not. What we do know is we’re going to need a lot of clever hard working scientists in the next generation. Refusing to have children isn’t exactly helpful, with that in mind… If everyone in developed countries refused to have children then there would be zero chance of cutting edge scientists finding ways to clean the atmosphere and reflect heat etc and the poorer countries who are so far behind us on tech will be even more screwed than they are now.

Thanks @BallaiLuimni. My view on having kids despite not having a bean and this being irresponsible is broadly similar - you have to parent bloody well to avoid the impacts that poverty has on children. It can be done, nobody’s saying it can’t, but many young people were raised in increasing levels of poverty in the last 13 years, and I can well see why they’re anxious not to repeat the cycle. Good on them, frankly.

I can’t speak for what it was like before I was born and of course, there have been very hard times before. But parenting has also evolved to be more aware of the impacts of these things on kids, and the youngest young adults are products of that knowledge.

Thanks, that’s interesting

🤣well that’s one interpretation 🤷🏼‍♀️.
but I do think my ds’s partner is in the camp of seeing sustainability challenges in the developing world and being genuinely concerned

I totally hear you and I can see there's a desire among young people not to repeat mistakes. The way I feel about it is that it's one thing to end up being a parent when you're not able or willing to be one - there's a high danger you'll resent it and be terrible at it (though not always, I've seen reluctant parents be absolutely marvellous at it, much to their own surprise). It's another thing to go into parenting wanting to do it right, even if you're in a difficult spot. No one gets it fully right - everyone makes mistakes - but going into it with a desire to di it right counts for a whole lot IMO.

I'm concerned that young people feel that if they can't do something perfectly they shouldn't do it at all, or that failing or making mistakes is unacceptable, when in fact it's just inevitable if you live any sort of life.

Sorry but this is bollocks. You can make decisions for environmental reasons without being perfect, you know.

Is she not meant to see her family?

Also having a child has a much bigger environmental impact than flying a few times a year does.

There's a big difference IMO between losing a child to illness, accident etc, which no one could foresee, to bringing a child into a world where you believe they are LIKELY to suffer.

We have the privilege of making that choice in the western world...

Refusing to have children isn’t exactly helpful, with that in mind… If everyone in developed countries refused to have children then there would be zero chance of cutting edge scientists finding ways to clean the atmosphere and reflect heat etc and the poorer countries who are so far behind us on tech will be even more screwed than they are now

It isn’t really a good argument, though? We should continue having kids to ensure that a saviour emerges to allow us to continue our current lifestyles (i.e. we need someone who can allow us to to remove Co2 from the atmosphere and reflect heat back outwards).

That technology is far from certain. And besides, by the time these scientists are capable of such tests (say, 30 or so), it’ll be 2053. 30 more years of emissions and climate change impacts. We’re likely to be long past the point of no return by then.

The better approach would be to tackle our current behaviour and change our current lifestyles. Yes it’s more difficult and yes it’s a harder sale, but it’s a much more guaranteed outcome than continuing with the status quo on the off chance of producing someone who can solve it.

I agree. I suppose my view is that everyone suffers. If you want to bring a child into a world without suffering then not having children is a good choice.

DH and I are in our thirties and have absolutely no desire to have children - admittedly it's mostly for selfish reasons but I have to say that the current state of the world does have an impact too.

Not really relevant to whole debate , but
any child you might have decided to have, would be a unique product of 2-separate mosaics of genetics inherited form your ancestors going back through the generations. So,e genes you inherit are recessive and form no part of your character or appearance, but simply may, or may not pass on, some genes will pass on, and some genes are potentially passed on but are not activated in their potential until the environmental (not climate) conditions trigger its activation )e.g the propensity to certainly illnesses under certain conditions- having the gene doesn’t automatically mean you’ll get the disease)

I don’t think many people have a kid to have a “mini me” . My kids are a mash of my exh and me. But they’ve also traits that aren’t obvious form either of us and are back to inherited genes way back in the past. We are the product of all our ancestors, not just our parents traits.

One thing I find curious is the idea that if a child will have a difficult life, they shouldn't exist.

Choosing not to have a child is nothing whatsoever like losing a child, or being unable to have one. Never existing - never even being conceived - is not a tragedy.

I would imagine, for example, that birth rates in Ukraine are very low right now. The chance of your child's early life being very negatively affected by war are 100%.

That climate change is negatively affecting human life already is indisputable. Whether it will be manageable or not remains to be seen. I can understand why some would feel the uncertainty is too much.

What? Where did I say that she shouldn’t see her parents- quite the opposite “in fairness she wouldn’t ….” 🤷🏼‍♀️

I also used plenty of 🤣🤣, which means it was an amusing thought …they actually fly loads and went long haul about 5 times in last 12 months, so I’m thinking , as I said, next time the whole climate change debate comes up with my ds who likes a really good debate, I might throw that one into the pot to get a rise and explanation.

I never said choosing not to have a child is a tragedy, I'm not sure where you got that from. It's not like losing a child or being unable to have one - I never made that comparison. My argument was around the idea that it's better not to have a child than risk that child having a difficult life, ie it's better for them not to be born if life would be difficult for them.

I only find it curious because it's not a view I hold, not because I don't think people should have that view. It's different to my view in the sense that I feel anything could go wrong at any time so what's the point in worrying about climate change - there are actually a lot more immediate dangers like illness, injury that are far more of a real threat.

But your ds isn't choosing not to have children in order to prevent or minimise climate change. He's saying he doesn't want them because the potential dc would suffer the consequences of climate change.

To clarify my last point, I know no child who's died from climate change (though I know plenty have) but I know a lot who've died and suffered from other causes. Climate change seems a rather theoretical threat in comparison to things that kill children or make their lives hard in much greater numbers.

So what you are saying is that if they didn’t travel long haul at all, but had kids, climate change wouldn’t happen?

The younger generation have realised the world is screwed, so some are deciding that they’ll just live their lives how they please.

But if your son and your DIL are serious, they should put their money where their mouths are.

I'm in my 40s. My 2 DC are in their teens

I worry about what they are going to have to live through regarding climate chaos so I can totally understand the perspective of your DS.

I think the numbers choosing not to have children will increase.

Partly from fear as to what the child might live though and partly because having children is pretty high on the ol carbon emission scale (for those in societies which are more capitalist/consumerist)

they actually fly loads and went long haul about 5 times in last 12 months, so I’m thinking , as I said, next time the whole climate change debate comes up with my ds who likes a really good debate, I might throw that one into the pot to get a rise and explanation.

Orrrr maybe just leave them be? I wouldn’t want to be discussing such a personal decision with someone who was passive aggressively calling me a hypocrite.

I'm mid 30s and trying, most of my friends are not but that is because of finances or relationships. Though are now begining to seriously consider all these things.

I've heard of climate change as a reason to have less, but not none. Heard of more people who were very worried about of the threat of nuclear war in the 80s and questioned if they were doing a terrible thing by having a child, but did anyway.

So what you are saying is that if they didn’t travel long haul at all, but had kids, climate change wouldn’t happen?

@Helpfulperson123 how did you come up with this from the OP posted?? I'm really baffled. The OP is clearly pointing out the hypocrisy of someone who claims to care about the welfare of children due to climate change but then proceeds to take flights, drive a car and so on.

The younger generation have realised the world is screwed, so some are deciding that they’ll just live their lives how they please.

Which is why the climate Doomism narrative has massively backfired and the IPCC is hastily trying to correct course.

I have no doubt that climate change is very serious. I also think that there are signs of hope (the rapidly falling cost of renewable energy for starters) and we can probably innovate our way to a brighter future if we put our minds to it.

I don't think a nihilistic attitude, a collapsing birth rate and an ageing population will be helpful though.