Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think Lucy Letby should be made to attend court for the sentencing

641 replies

Viviennemary · 20/08/2023 22:06

I know there are other threads on this terrible case. But I just read she has refused to attend court for the sentencing which is to be on Monday morning. The judge said he does not have the power to force her to attend. Can't see she will ever be allowed out of prison. And rightly so.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
AtomicBlondeRose · 21/08/2023 07:41

The thing is, even her presence wouldn’t provide closure for the parents so it’s a weak argument really. When it comes down to it, what they will want/need are things that cannot be forced under any circumstances; for her to feel contrition, to know she feels the weight of her guilt, an apology, a reason - her presence in court at sentencing is meant to serve as a proxy for all this but it is a poor one at best and ultimately we can’t force people to feel a certain way, say or think certain things. Autonomy in that respect is the one thing everyone retains forever and it’s completely understandable that someone deprived of liberty would want to maintain it (even if the deprivation is for an extremely good and deserved reason).

CoffeeMama1 · 21/08/2023 07:41

I agree they can't be forced and dragged there but I DO think they should be forced to listen to the victim impact statements and sentencing. Shut them in a room/their cell and play it so they can't escape it. To choose not to listen to the victims is cowardly and disgusting.

bellac11 · 21/08/2023 07:42

Some of us have mentioned, but no one seems to respond, the impact on the guards of either being injured or having allegations of assault made about them.

Its just glossed over but is a huge part of their job, its why there is a massive recruitment problem (part of why)

Whyohwhywyoming · 21/08/2023 07:44

Would everyone who wants the victim
impact statements broadcast in her cell still want this if they knew she was getting some sort of pleasure from it?

Sofifn · 21/08/2023 07:45

melj1213 · 20/08/2023 22:55

YABU - why are people obsessed with a criminal "facing justice" by attending their sentencing?

It's all well and good saying "make them go" but how do you think that works in practice? Firstly you have the safety of the prison and court employees to consider - if a prisoner knows they're about to be dragged from their cell to be given a life sentence in front of a packed courtroom even if they don't want to be there then I doubt they're going to be sitting politely waiting, wearing their Sunday best and acquiescing to the officers request to put their handcuffs on nicely ...

Even the smallest and slightest prisoner can make it impossible to physically manhandle them into court if they don't want to be there (and they can't do anything that will deliberately injure the prisoner as that would be just as unlawful as any other crime) - and if the rules apply to them then they also apply to the 20st 6ft brick shit house gang member that has just been convicted of GBH ... would you want to have to drag him into court?

Not only would it be the safety aspect but also the disruption ... Firstly if they're going to shout/scream/cause a scene how do you plan to ensure the sentencing is carried out? You can't remove them from the court room (as that's exactly what they want) but if they're causing such a disturbance that the sentencing can't be concluded then what do you do?

The courts are already backlogged, if a sentencing hearing is dragged out for hours because a prisoner has refused to come out of their cell, is wearing no clothes as they refused to get dressed and resisted all attempts to put clothes on them, refused to get in the prison van, resisted going into the cell at the court, had to be physically dragged into the courtroom and then screamed and attacked the officers that are keeping them in the dock so that the judge cannot be heard to pass judgement ... How is that going to help things?

That's before you get into the fact that there are more than likely going to be victims families wanting to see justice done, how distressing is it going to be for them to have to experience that? Yes they might want to see the perpetrator brought to justice but having it descend into massive chaos will not give them any kind of closure, it's probably going to cause more distress.

Then there's the arguments of "Add time on if they won't go!" ... If you're going down for life then what does the threat of "another 5 years" actually achieve? Nmand how are you going to apply the "added time" - will it be a set X years or will it be proportional to their sentence? Because otherwise you get people with short sentences refusing to go to court ending up spending more time in prison because they used their legal right not to attend their sentencing than for the crime they committed... which would be a massive legal minefield and any prisoner who challenged it would have a field day in the courts.

They're getting sentenced whether they are in court or not, why does it matter if they're physically present? If anything I think it's more powerful that the wheels of justice will continue turning whether or not they are there, and means they don't get to have their final "moment in the spotlight", the focus can be on their crime and the fact justice has been done.

I’ve read everything you’ve posted, all your cavelarious posting of Voltaire, and what’s obvious is that you’ve never lived through another person taking a loved ones life from you. If you had, you wouldn’t be here defending the eighths of prisoners to uphold the law. Laws need to change. They do regularly through life as our understanding of situations and morality changes.

Let me tell you, it’s horrendous when this happens to you. And too fucking right you want that person up in court, listening to the horrific fall out of the nasty shit they have done. They should be made to go. They should be tasered until they go, and if they won’t then video should be set up in their cell so they have to hear every single word and those in the court room can see their face. You can argue about rights all you want, but these bastards have no rights. They took the rights away from the victims and from the victims family and from society. So fuck them. You can keep defending them, but until you understand what it is to be a victim’s family your opinion means nothing.

The law needs to change. And this isn’t an emotional response to this court case. This is an emotional response to what I and others have been through. It’s a weirding of power by these bastards. And people like you saying ‘well that’s the law, that’s their right’ are part of the damned problem.

You don’t get to tell victims families what’s right or best for them. They know what they need. And yes this differs from case to case. But to say ‘but what difference does it make?’ shows how obtuse your views are and your clear lack of understanding.

Stop telling victims and their families what’s right for them.

MadamWhiteleigh · 21/08/2023 07:47

Badsox · 21/08/2023 05:04

In the days when this country still had the death penalty for murder, the black cap appeared and the death sentence was handed down by the judge as soon as the jury returned the guilty verdict. Evidence regarding mental incapacity, circumstance etc was then presented by legal teams and if appropriate, the sentence was commuted. This happened quite often.
I am not an advocate for the death penalty, however the handing down of an immediate life sentence at the time of the verdict, if the person has been found guilty would make justice more immediate because the guilty person would almost certainly be present to hear it. The finer points of exactly how long until/if they could seek parole could be decided in the way they are now.

But it’s not just a life sentence handed down, the judge has to set the minimum term. So weigh up all the factors, aggravating and mitigating, against the sentencing guidelines and other relevant case law. This is not something that can be done in 30 seconds.

Odingodof · 21/08/2023 07:47

It's important because it matters to the families, there have prepared victim statements?

They want her there, that's why it's importance.

I heard on TV that there is a law they can use to force her to go.

UndercoverCop · 21/08/2023 07:49

Even if you physically force someone , to what end? Do you believe defendants will sit compliantly showing appropriate levels of remorse? It's likely to be even more damaging to victims and next of kin.
A decent summary following the Korbel case in similar circumstances

https://thesecretbarrister.com/2023/04/04/how-do-we-force-cowardly-murderers-to-face-up-to-what-they-have-done/?s=09

Odingodof · 21/08/2023 07:50

As pp said its what the victim families want.

Whyohwhywyoming · 21/08/2023 07:53

Odingodof · 21/08/2023 07:50

As pp said its what the victim families want.

It’s what some of them want, not necessarily all. And the legal system isn’t built on what victims want, I know that sounds shitty especially in light of the post above, in no way am I going to undermine someone’s horrific real life experiences. But if I was one of the victims families, I’d probably want her physically harmed. I’d want her tortured. But that doesn’t mean I should have that.

5128gap · 21/08/2023 07:56

No, it serves no purpose and the policing required to keep the ghouls and vigilantes contained would add to the costs.
The desire to force her is based in nothing more than people's belief that she should be permitted no rights. If she wanted to attend there would be people on here arguing she shouldn't be allowed to.
We can't go changing laws on a whim depending on how much we hate the criminal. If people feel strongly enough they should campaign for a change in law for all cases going forward. But doubtless no one will bother to once the emotion has died down.

Clafoutie · 21/08/2023 07:57

Chickentikka567 · 20/08/2023 22:58

I'm fully aware of that. However I know some of the posters want to 'force' her up to the courts for the wrong reasons. For a spectacle basically.

I agree.

bevelino · 21/08/2023 07:58

The court sentence could be live streamed to her cell, with her on mute so that she can be seen but not heard.

AngryGreasedSantaCatcus · 21/08/2023 07:59

The other issue is , it's very likely (given her past behaviour) that she will get off on it. Listening to the victims impact statements and feed on their pain . Just like she did when she was trawling their FB pages and loitering around them in hospital while they were grieving.

Zanatdy · 21/08/2023 08:00

You can’t force someone. They are looking at increasing sentences for someone who won’t attend. Means little to her when she’s going to get a whole life tariff

Almostwelsh · 21/08/2023 08:00

Serco guards have been killed transferring prisoners. It's a high risk situation for staff.

madeinmanc · 21/08/2023 08:00

The ghoulish calls various creative punishments that have been posted in these threads are disturbing in of themselves. People seem to be using it as an outlet for their own bile and perversions.

madeinmanc · 21/08/2023 08:01

*for various

FuckoffeeBeforeCoffee · 21/08/2023 08:02

To be fair, I probably wouldn't want to go either.

TooOldForThisNonsense · 21/08/2023 08:02

She should be I agree however as others have said people can’t really be physically manhandled and would the disruption be worth it. I do think they should get an extra 10 years on their sentence if they don’t agree but in LL case it’s unlikely to make any difference

TooOldForThisNonsense · 21/08/2023 08:03

calmcoco · 20/08/2023 22:11

If the law is that defendants are allowed not to attend, then that's the law.

As a country we need to stop shouting for law changes based on very emotive events.

If the law needs review then we can do that calmly in future. I assume there are practical issues with 'forcing' attendance.

The law isn’t that they’re allowed not to attend. However it’s only a 2 year prison sentence so a bit pathetic for someone like LL who’s going to be going away for much longer.

Escapingtherealityoflife · 21/08/2023 08:04

There was talk of having it live fed to her cell. That would work. One way only so she can hear and see what’s happening

Summerrainagain1 · 21/08/2023 08:04

minou123 · 20/08/2023 22:14

I dont know why people are so hung up on this, its irrelevant if she attends, it means nothing. The sentence is the sentence, she has already been convicted, the job is done regardless of whether she is sitting there to hear it or not.

You put it far better than I did @bellac11 . That's what I was trying to say

This.

Justice isn't about parading criminals about to face the public wrath Game of Thornes style. She will get the appropriate sentence from the judge.

calmcoco · 21/08/2023 08:04

ohcrums · 20/08/2023 22:13

I agree it needs reviewing, perhaps they could add 5 years on and no privileges ever if they don't attend

Show quote history

One reason the Letby case is so emotive is it frightens us all. Babies are so vulnerable in NICU.

It would be far better to focus energy on preventing this happening again than trying to think of more punishments after it has happened.

What difference will +5 years make to Letby who is expected to receive a whole life sentence?