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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think Lucy Letby should be made to attend court for the sentencing

641 replies

Viviennemary · 20/08/2023 22:06

I know there are other threads on this terrible case. But I just read she has refused to attend court for the sentencing which is to be on Monday morning. The judge said he does not have the power to force her to attend. Can't see she will ever be allowed out of prison. And rightly so.

OP posts:
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FlightoftheKakapo · 20/08/2023 22:38

I agree that her attendance is irrelevant. In a lot of ways I think her non attendance will give more airtime to the victim impact statements - rather than whether she still appears vanilla, beige (along with all the other media descriptions trotted out this week.)

Her sentence will be huge and given she’s been found guilty despite a defence that has meant bereaved parents, close colleagues etc have been put through court interrogation and reliving of their ordeals, I would doubt an appearance at sentencing would be a catalyst for an outpouring of remorse.

SovietSpy · 20/08/2023 22:38

Everything Bellac11 said above. The sort of criminal refusing to attend court has either got nothing to lose (facing a long sentence) or likely to be disruptive.

What could be worse for the victims than having sentencing disrupted by the convicted person shouting or screaming, being abusive or pretending to be ill? The judge will send them down which is what they want and then you’ve just created a circus and the headlines in the papers will be about the disruption not the crime.

Also some cases have started to televise the sentencing (camera just on the judge) so any criminal dragged to court determined to disrupt will know they get a tv audience as well as any shouting would be heard.

PinkCherryBlossoms · 20/08/2023 22:40

No, it's a completely impractical idea.

Paix · 20/08/2023 22:40

LooselyBasedOnAMadeUpStory · 20/08/2023 22:09

Short of manhandling her in there, risking injury to her and/or the officers, how could she be forced to attend?

In the same way they get her to attend her life sentence?

continentallentil · 20/08/2023 22:41

calmcoco · 20/08/2023 22:11

If the law is that defendants are allowed not to attend, then that's the law.

As a country we need to stop shouting for law changes based on very emotive events.

If the law needs review then we can do that calmly in future. I assume there are practical issues with 'forcing' attendance.

This exactly

We should only be making laws / rules for good reasons

There’s no practical reason for her to be there. Even if the families want her there, it would be hard to justify physically man-handling her into the building, and the additional costs and disruption that would cause.

IhearyouClemFandango · 20/08/2023 22:42

It makes absolutely no odds. The punishment will be the punishment whether she is there or not.

PinkCherryBlossoms · 20/08/2023 22:44

It's one of those things that might sound attractive, but is never going to work how people want it to in reality.

VerticalSausages · 20/08/2023 22:46

MansfieldLark · 20/08/2023 22:12

Said this on a different thread but I strongly believe she will be in a secure hospital like Rampton and not prison.

She has not been diagnosed with any treatable mental illness, nor will she be before sentencing, so it’s going to be prison not hospital.

Hillcrest2022 · 20/08/2023 22:47

Of course she should have been mandated to attend (sadly the law does not allow for this). The parents of those babies should have been able to look her in the eye and the judge should have been able to apply the sentence whilst telling her that this was one of the more heinous crimes they had come across.

She absolutely should have faced that.

catin8oots · 20/08/2023 22:49

Are you saying prisoners shouldn't have any physical autonomy?

drpet49 · 20/08/2023 22:49

Nasty bitch arrogant to the end.

Hillcrest2022 · 20/08/2023 22:51

catin8oots · 20/08/2023 22:49

Are you saying prisoners shouldn't have any physical autonomy?

@catin8oots murders of babies should be forced to attend a juducial reprimand but you go ahead an defend her.

Chickentikka567 · 20/08/2023 22:53

You can tell posters on here would've been queueing up to watch the hangings and the guillotines.

Tiredanddistracted · 20/08/2023 22:54

I'd be concerned a serial killer forced to attend their sentencing would take their resentment out on the families by shouting graphic things out about the victims' deaths. I can't imagine that would be a good outcome.

melj1213 · 20/08/2023 22:55

YABU - why are people obsessed with a criminal "facing justice" by attending their sentencing?

It's all well and good saying "make them go" but how do you think that works in practice? Firstly you have the safety of the prison and court employees to consider - if a prisoner knows they're about to be dragged from their cell to be given a life sentence in front of a packed courtroom even if they don't want to be there then I doubt they're going to be sitting politely waiting, wearing their Sunday best and acquiescing to the officers request to put their handcuffs on nicely ...

Even the smallest and slightest prisoner can make it impossible to physically manhandle them into court if they don't want to be there (and they can't do anything that will deliberately injure the prisoner as that would be just as unlawful as any other crime) - and if the rules apply to them then they also apply to the 20st 6ft brick shit house gang member that has just been convicted of GBH ... would you want to have to drag him into court?

Not only would it be the safety aspect but also the disruption ... Firstly if they're going to shout/scream/cause a scene how do you plan to ensure the sentencing is carried out? You can't remove them from the court room (as that's exactly what they want) but if they're causing such a disturbance that the sentencing can't be concluded then what do you do?

The courts are already backlogged, if a sentencing hearing is dragged out for hours because a prisoner has refused to come out of their cell, is wearing no clothes as they refused to get dressed and resisted all attempts to put clothes on them, refused to get in the prison van, resisted going into the cell at the court, had to be physically dragged into the courtroom and then screamed and attacked the officers that are keeping them in the dock so that the judge cannot be heard to pass judgement ... How is that going to help things?

That's before you get into the fact that there are more than likely going to be victims families wanting to see justice done, how distressing is it going to be for them to have to experience that? Yes they might want to see the perpetrator brought to justice but having it descend into massive chaos will not give them any kind of closure, it's probably going to cause more distress.

Then there's the arguments of "Add time on if they won't go!" ... If you're going down for life then what does the threat of "another 5 years" actually achieve? Nmand how are you going to apply the "added time" - will it be a set X years or will it be proportional to their sentence? Because otherwise you get people with short sentences refusing to go to court ending up spending more time in prison because they used their legal right not to attend their sentencing than for the crime they committed... which would be a massive legal minefield and any prisoner who challenged it would have a field day in the courts.

They're getting sentenced whether they are in court or not, why does it matter if they're physically present? If anything I think it's more powerful that the wheels of justice will continue turning whether or not they are there, and means they don't get to have their final "moment in the spotlight", the focus can be on their crime and the fact justice has been done.

Hillcrest2022 · 20/08/2023 22:56

@Chickentikka567 she is neither being hanged nor being guillotined.

She is being jailed, rightly for the crimes she committed. If you take issue with that then you object to the democratic systems we have in place that aim to apprehend, prosecute, punish, and rehabilitate criminal offenders.

Chickentikka567 · 20/08/2023 22:57

Would you be ok with two slight female officers manhandling a 6ft 4 20st prisoner up to court?

Chickentikka567 · 20/08/2023 22:58

I'm fully aware of that. However I know some of the posters want to 'force' her up to the courts for the wrong reasons. For a spectacle basically.

milveycrohn · 20/08/2023 22:58

@ohcrums
"I agree it needs reviewing, perhaps they could add 5 years on and no privileges ever if they don't attend"
It is quite possible she'll get a life sentence , so an extra 5 years won't make any difference.
She has a 'right' to be in court, but I do not see how you can make her. Suppose she screamed and fought the entire time? Suppose she screamed during the sentencing? Or laughed, etc.
I think the next best alternative is to have a live feed to the cell, so the sound is piped into her cell.
I am sure the Judge will take absence into account in the way he will describe her sentence.

catin8oots · 20/08/2023 22:59

@Hillcrest2022 how did I defend her?

Hillcrest2022 · 20/08/2023 22:59

@Chickentikka567 I expect that male officers would be used in that scenario - what is your point?

LAHallucinations · 20/08/2023 22:59

I dont know why people are so hung up on this, its irrelevant if she attends, it means nothing. The sentence is the sentence, she has already been convicted, the job is done regardless of whether she is sitting there to hear it or not.

Well the families of the victims might not think it's 'irrelevant' or 'means nothing'. They might want to see justice being done, with Letby in the dock. And it's not just the sentencing she'll miss, but also the victim impact statements. It might be very important to those parents that Letby is forced to listen to their words and hear how much damage she's caused.

There definitely has to be some sort of punishment for not attending sentencing. Either a longer sentence, or (for people already facing life in prison) some sort of removal of privileges. I saw that an MP has suggested that the audio is live streamed into Letby's cell, which is a good idea.

HorseyMel · 20/08/2023 22:59

What does it matter? Why do you feel the need for the theatre? You won't even be there. You'd have been knitting by the beheading basket during the French Revolution, wouldn't you?

Hillcrest2022 · 20/08/2023 23:01

The victim impacts statements is a very good point made by the earlier poster. It allows devastated families get some sort of closure and have their voices heard.

Watermelon444 · 20/08/2023 23:04

It should be what the victims families want not what the defendant wants. If they want her there, she should be brought there, in the same way that if she decides she doesn’t want to serve her sentence she will still be made to serve it….

She. Is obviously trying to retain some power and control over the victims and this should not be allowed.

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