To think Lucy Letby should be made to attend court for the sentencing

[Viviennemary]

I know there are other threads on this terrible case. But I just read she has refused to attend court for the sentencing which is to be on Monday morning. The judge said he does not have the power to force her to attend. Can't see she will ever be allowed out of prison. And rightly so.

I believe the GOvt promised the law would changed a while ago but have not done so, legislation is supposed to be bought forward in the autumn but they did say that a year ago.

Its not just sentencing, its the witness impact statements and victims & families say they want the guilty to be there.... they could be given the choice?

I don't really see why the killer can't be shackled and gagged if they resist.

I guess the problem arises when a person has been found guilty when they are not....

Obviously I agree offender should attend sentencing, especially for serious crimes. However I’m reality I don’t see how you can force someone. To force someone, without it becoming obstructive to the court (eg shouting/fighting) then you need to literally force someone by being tied to a chair and gagged or something.

Personally I think lack of attendance at sentencing should result in A) harsher sentence and b) withdrawal of privileges in custody as punishment.

ideally they’d be there but I don’t see how they could be forced without making chaos in the court.

In fairness, I don't think the accusations of misogyny are quite on the mark here.

I have seen plenty of threads re male paedophiles or similar, and the comments are pretty much the same. "Let him loose with the mothers of the children" etc and similar comments. I don't think the implied accusations of violence are anything to do with her sex, or her physical stature.

FWIW, I don't think she should be compelled to attend so I'm not trying to argue that point. I just think that the passionate statements here don't have anything to do with who she is - I think people would be saying exactly the same if it were a man. Child killers and the suchlike stir up strong, primal emotions in folk.

What's a non-serious crime then?

More people who have zero understanding of what it is like to be a victim in such a case.

It isn’t about public wrath when you’re a victims family member. It’s a lot more personal and to those saying ‘it won’t help closure’ for some of us, it does.

Serco have recently had a massive fine from the HSE after an officer was kicked to death when transferring a prisoner for sentencing. It is likely they would refuse to transport an unwilling prisoner.

It’s my understanding that she will be taken to the court, she just will refuse to enter the court room where the judge and public gallery is. So she’ll be sat somewhere in that building, until the impact statements and sentencing has finished, she’ll then be taken back to prison.

The simplest solution would be for there to be cameras set up in the room so she has to listen to what’s going on in the court. However she may then refuse to get in the van which brought her from the prison, so maybe they would have to set up a room in the prison with linked cameras to the court. But then she may refuse to move into that room. It goes on and on……..

What ever happens she deserves to rot in hell.

Someone like her would probably get off on the victim impact statements. She already knows the devastation she’s caused and doesn’t care.

This is a really powerful post.

I agree.

It won't matter where she is and hears the sentence. It'll be the sentence whatever.

I often think people want convicted people in the dock to watch them suffer through sentencing. I can understand why - especially cases like this.

But what does it achieve? The closure should be the fact they are found guilty and will serve a sentence. Watching them receive verdict or sentence changes nothing.

I'm not sure who you are asking, but thought I'd answer.

Non-serious crime? What sprung to mind is non payment of TV Licence.
There are people serving prison sentences because they didn't pay the fines for evading the TV license.

Sorry to derail.

They don't lose bodily autonomy. They can't be forced to eat, take medication, have vaccinations, attend therapy or groups or attend association.

Some fundamental human rights are held by prisoners. Thankfully so.

@bellac11 I dont know why people are so hung up on this, its irrelevant if she attends,

These “people” you’re talking about include the victims’ parents!! It’s the law that they should be allowed to sit in court and see the criminal being sentenced. We don’t know what that means to the parents and it shouldn’t be up to us to minimise it by saying it makes no difference!

its irrelevant if she attends, it means nothing

Not to victims and their families. It means something to them. And they should be the ones who people care about, not the criminals. Get them there with a taser, or in a straight jacket, tell them there’s no chance of parole if they don’t, stop their family visits, I really don’t care how. When you’re the family of a victim and you want that person in court, and as I’ve said, in some cases people don’t, in other cases, you damned we’ll do, then they should be forced to attend.

If the victims want it, it isn’t a case of people on here saying ‘what does it matter?’ It bloody well matters to them. So sick of hearing about people defending murderers and rapists rights. Fuck their rights. They didn’t care about the rights of their victims or their families and loved ones.

Not sure if this was responding me because I used that Term? If so what I meant by serious crime was a crime with significant impact on individual (eg violent crimes or sexual crimes) as opposed to those with less significant impact (eg breaking into a warehouse and stealing products at night etc).

possible there is a better term to use.

Im going to have to leave this thread, it’s just too upsetting to read post after post of people who have never been in their families situation saying stuff like ‘who cares’ and ‘it doesn’t matter’ and ‘the law is the law’. It’s too heartbreaking, it’s like people don’t even care about the people we lose to bastards like this.

I mean, either way she's going to hear the sentence so its nor like she can escape it. Those of you wanting her to be in anguish about it, avoiding attending means she's probably somewhat in denial about the whole thing and so that will make being thrown in the slammer for probably more than she'll ever live even worse..

Well said.

@Sofifn I hope people read your post and reflect.

I wondered this. She wouldn't have been willing to do any of it, so surely the same should apply here. As an aside, I'm not sure I would be able to attend court and look at the person who had murdered my baby. I definitely wouldn't be able to read a victim statement. That shows a lot of strength, which I can't imagine that I'd have.

I'm someone who has lost a family member to a criminal act, and I still think it's ridiculous to shouting about "forcing" people into the dock.

It's not a "one size fits all" scenario. You might want your perpetrator to be there, but personally I couldn't care less whether mine was or not, in fact, I had no desire whatsoever to ever set eyes on them again once the verdict had been delivered.

My concerns lie in the fact that if people like you get your way, then it's inevitable that sooner rather than later the families of victims are going to be confronted by the sight of the person who murdered or otherwise harmed their loved ones pointing and laughing at them, taunting them, sneering, and generally going out of their way to be as obnoxious and harmful as possible. If you play stupid games with nasty people, then you are going to win stupid prizes.

As you said yourself, stop telling victims and their families what's right for them. Your opinion carries no more weight that anyone else's, so victim or otherwise, you have no right to try and claim ownership over a matter than is of no relevance to you beyond your own individual case.

This is one of those things that people seem to fasten on without any real logic. Why do you think it's so essential, OP?

But there is no 'what should apply here' things have to be done within the law.

She willingly attended most of the trial.

I think a lot of posters here don't understand the practicalities of dragging someone into court.

Someone unwilling to be moved is a risk to themselves and all the staff involved. They could be kicking, biting, scratching, spitting, wetting themselves or defecating. Refusing to walk.

So okay, some posters say well strap her to a stretcher and gag her (you really want that? you want our society and justice system to do that?) plus being gagged could kill her). So there's a fight doing that and she could injure herself and numerous staff. Even if they get her onto a stretcher and strapped down, they have to carry her out of her cell. Then through however many narrow doorways, up and down however many flights of stairs, in and out of however many vehicles.

Serious risk of injury to staff every step of the way. They could lose their footing, slip, fall downstairs, slip and hit their head and sustain a serious head injury. Have limbs knocked or crushed going through doorways. Sustain a back injury.

Plus the utter trauma of being involved in a scene like that.

So, so many prison staff and Police receive injuries in restraints. Some that end careers through being unable to physically work so they are then reliant on disability benefits to survice. Or truama related mental injuries. Which leads to relationship breakdowns, drug and alcohol use, self-harm or suicidality and more costs to the NHS, the benefits system and society.

And before anyone says "well that's the nature of the job, they are involved in restraint anyway. Yes, in emergency situations or other situations where there is no alternative. Not putting themselves and others at risk to satisfy a public who just want to see the look on LL face in court.

Why do you think she wouldn't have wanted to go to court? I'm sure she didn't want to be charged but, as she was, I expect she was hoping to be found not guilty.

It’s quite likely she doesn’t really know herself.