To think Lucy Letby should be made to attend court for the sentencing

[Viviennemary]

I know there are other threads on this terrible case. But I just read she has refused to attend court for the sentencing which is to be on Monday morning. The judge said he does not have the power to force her to attend. Can't see she will ever be allowed out of prison. And rightly so.

Out of interest (I know the answer by what you've said) have you ever actually worked in prisons or around criminals?

'Could easily?! Tell us, what expertise do you base this on and how will it work practically? If you think it's that straightforward, no doubt you'll have worked it all out.

Incidentally, given the risk to said staff that you demonstrate no interest in, this is not a moral high ground situation for you. So let's hear about the practicalities instead.

And I'm reeling from yours.

Read my previous posts about the risks to staff. How individual prison officers, their lives and families are destroyed by physical and mental injuries sustained during the course of their working day.

You might not give a shit if LL died under restraint which does happen. But even if you don't care about her life or how her death would effect her family, the staff members would be suspended and investigated. They'd go through months of Police and internal investigations and hearings which is of course traumatic.

But if she didn't die, there's still all the risks of injury and trauma to staff.

Which they face every day to protect the safety and security of the inmate, staff and the prison.

Because there's no real alternative in certain situations. A prisoner has to go back to their cell or be moved to another prison for the safety and security of those prisons.

And in those cases every attempt will be made to avoid a violent restraint situation because it puts everyone involved at risk. And sometimes can't be avoided.

In the case of LL being forced to court putting her and staff at risk, it's entirely avoidable.

This isn't about protecting LL, it's a much wider issue. If you want to throw prison officers under the bus and not care about their lives or health or their families because you want to see LLs reaction in court, that's on you.

In the same way they are taken from their holding cells to prison?

In the same way they are moved around the prison?

You're clueless, absolutely clueless to the point it's getting embarrassing.

As has already been stated, there's a big difference between chucking someone in a van or a cell, and walking away, and restraining someone, quietly, in a courtroom as opposed to a metal cage, for hours.

Please, please, can you read the other posters' concerns, and try to understand where they're coming from?

Yep. And getting someone 'down' on the floor isn't that difficult if there's enough people involved. Getting them up again to drag through doorways and up and down stairs is.

Yes she should be made to go. I find it sickening that there's even a choice in the matter. As for the her sympathiser's on here saying she shouldn't be dragged in or made to go 😳 disgusting.

Waves back.

Absolutely agree with everything you've said. DH and I have both been injured during restraint situations. I'm very fortunate that the most serious injury I've had is some aching muscles/sore back etc. but thought I'd had my hand broken. DH was in a neck brace for several weeks after he had his head put through a window. And we're both 'specialised' in restraints.

It is always, and should remain always, an absolute last resort to protect safety and security as you said. Absolutely agree with you.

It's not sympathising with her, it's recognising that logistically it's hard but more importantly a lot of cowards such as LL get pleasure from recounting their crimes and twisting the knife into the victims families. Having her there doesn't give more closure, it doesn't make her feel bad or remorseful, it isn't as some think it is and there's nothing to be gained from dragging someone in against their will. Its not about their rights or thoughts or feelings but about the justice system more widely. I've been present in court a lot with my job and people would do well to realise this isn't a drama, it's not a film and just because people want to see her face what she's done or whatever it doesn't work like that.

You're clueless, absolutely clueless to the point it's getting embarrassing.

Rather be embarrassing than have the mindset that ‘the demands of a few victims’ ,whose babies are dead, are irrelevant.

Fine aspirations expressed on this thread, but not much practical thought.

Suppose that the 'populists' on this thread get their way. Court guards are then compelled to (somehow) force an unwilling convict to his/her sentencing hearing. Now suppose that the convict is a hugely strong man convicted of heinous crimes for which he is almost certainly looking at a whole-life tariff. In the ensuing struggle he manages to kill one of the court guards (who incidentally is a young working mother earning barely more than the minimum wage). What would the tub-thumping tabloids and the something-must-be-done crowd on this thread make of that?

The prisoner has nothing to lose - what's another murder when you're already looking at a guaranteed lifetime behind bars? And why not try to take one more life when your personal currency is notoriety? Some of your fellow inmates may even laud you for making one last stand against 'the system'. Some of them really are that twisted.

No! Allow the prisoner their 'protest' and let the world see them for the coward they are.

That quote isn't quite what I said though was it?

I said the demands of a few victims and some members of society

And you're still wholy ignoring my very relevant points.

Restraint carries risks to the inmate and all staff involved. It's not about 'specialist teams', specialist teams still involve risks. There is no completely safe way to do what you want.

Dragging an unwilling person up stairs is dangerous. Even carrying someone on a stretcher upstairs is dangerous.

There is no way that it can be done without risks. So a risk assessment will be completed and what's the first part of a manual handling risk assessment? Is this necessary? Or can it be avoided?

No it's not necessary and can absolutely be avoided.

No, as explained by the various prison staff.

Also, do you think this specialist team exists already then? In which case, why did you say there could easily be a team rather than there is one and we'll just use them? Come on, show us your working.

This.

I also think if we applaud while people are physically manhandled where we want them ti be, is the thin end of the wedge in having a heavy handed state. It’s not 80’s Soviet Union, personally I don’t want that kind of culture where we throw people around in that way.

They won't give a fuck, as evidenced by this thread. Prison and court staff are collateral.

I also think if people witnessed a human being forced physically to go in somewhere and sit down - something that often takes several strong people forcing them - it’s not the ‘yaaaaay victory,we got her’ moment you think it is.

LL not attending her sentencing doesn’t mean she isn’t sentenced and won’t be in prison for the rest of her life (likely). She will get the news another way. It just means we can’t see her face - the baying blood mentality of some people really disturbs me sometimes.

@Magicoven it's sounds like sympathy. Stick her in a wheelchair and wheel her out!! Even if she's not listening and gagged. It's about the fact she even has a choice in the matter, she shouldn't have anything not even rights. This country is so soft. Fancy letting a cunt like that have a say in whether she attends or not.

I don't care what you think to be honest, I have zero sympathy for her but having worked on a lot of horrific cases and having been in court many times I have my own informed thoughts rather than assuming what's right and wrong. If you want to label me as being sympathetic to her then that's up to you, I know I am not and it just reminds me how clueless many are about the justice system and the people who work within it.

Literally no one has sympathised with LL. please do quote a post stating sympathy for her?

I’m reminded of the recent thread about Ian Watkins getting attacked in prison. I was very much on the side of ‘who cares, taste of his own medicine’. But posters made really good points, one that sticks in my head is - we don’t condone this because we have to be better than them.

We can’t condone professional thugs dragging prisoners around no matter what their crime is. The criminal doesn’t ‘deserve’ anything beyond the basics and that’s because we require good people to ensure that their punishment/rehabilitation is carried out. If we start condoning aggression because we’re aware of cases where the perpetrators would only be receiving a fraction of what they’d dished out its opening a Pandora’s box. It’s impossible to police case by case and effectively handing over power to the people we currently ask and entrust to maintain a semblance of societal normality amongst populations who’ve rejected that.

as it is, I feel it’s perfectly possible to stream the sentencing trial in full to LL and show her reaction too. I don’t believe it should be possible for her to hide. That does risk the families not getting the closure they’re seeking but they need to experience that themselves instead of being left with ‘what if’s’ and their own imaginations.

Everyone has rights regardless of what they have done, it is one of the most basic facets of modern and civilised society.

If we start picking and choosing what rights are applied to you depending on an arbitrary scale then what happens when that scale changes and includes you having rights removed?

All prisoners have a right not to attend sentencing. Doing so harms nobody except the frothing mob wanting to watch the prisoner being sentenced.

Forcing a prisoner to attend their sentencing has the potential to harm many people - physically and emotionally - and therefore the risk outweighs the benefit.

Nah, your argument is entirely not practical and would involve risks to many innocent people.

And you don't want to back down and are using hyperbole and only quoting a sentence of an extremely long and well-constructed post to try and defend yourself now.

And it's not working.

Have you missed all the posts from people who actually understand the practicalities of restraint telling you why this wouldn't work, or do you just think you know better?

Some people will only accept that THEIR need to see someone suffer is the mark important need of all.

@WeetabixTowels too right! Not forgetting the parents. I'm sure they would like to see it suffer to.