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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Modest fashion

132 replies

Darthwazette · 18/08/2023 15:33

AIBU to dislike the term “modest fashion” when referring to Islamic dressing?

A spa local to me is doing a social media thing about welcoming all, including people who chose modest fashion, featuring two Muslim women, in fully covering swimsuits including head covering.

It feels like, by contrast, I’m being called immodest for dressings in a swim suit?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
Tartareistasty · 18/08/2023 20:03

Calibrachoa · 18/08/2023 19:56

If you Google Modest Clothing and click on Images and scroll down. You'll be scrolling for a very long time to find a photo of a man. In fact I gave up scrolling before I got to one, it's that rare.

There are brands for it.
It also might be because men's clothing js generally quite covery. Haven't seen a las around in hot pants yet while doing weekly shop. Nlthing against hot lanta, jusy illustrating men's clothing is generally more towards "modest side" anyway

CurlewKate · 18/08/2023 20:07

@Myfavouritepenguin "Are you being deliberately obtuse? What if the pp did say the thing about the modesty/ lack of modesty? If these are fair terms to use to describe clothes then where’s the harm in using those terms among friends"
Isn't that what I'm saying? If I offered to lend a friend an item of clothing and she said "Sorry, I can't wear that-it's nor modest enough" I wouldn't be offended. I'd try and find her something else she could wear. No, I don't like the idea that women are constrained in what they can wear by their culture or their religion, but I'm not going to have that discussion when I want to go swimming and for her to come with me. BTW, I hate those shorts under little girl's dresses too.

Whingebob · 18/08/2023 20:09

We llive (most of us) in the uk. Bikinis, shirt skirts, minidresses, backless tops are all normal.

I don't think I've ever even heard the word 'immodest' spoken out loud.

There's many other things in society to be worked on. This isn't one, really. It's a case of roll your eyes and sigh, move on

Pollyputhekettleon · 18/08/2023 20:14

Whingebob · 18/08/2023 20:09

We llive (most of us) in the uk. Bikinis, shirt skirts, minidresses, backless tops are all normal.

I don't think I've ever even heard the word 'immodest' spoken out loud.

There's many other things in society to be worked on. This isn't one, really. It's a case of roll your eyes and sigh, move on

Literally the only reason you're saying that is because you're petrified of offending Muslims.

'There were cries of protest on an international level earlier this month when comments made about an alleged victim’s underwear were used in a Cork rape trial. To the outrage of women in Ireland and around the world, the accused was acquitted. Senior counsel Elizabeth O’Connell, who defended her 27-year-old client over the alleged rape of a 17-year-old girl, made the initial comments in line with her defence and was accused of victim-blaming'

Clothing worn by victims of sexual assault featured in 'Not Consent' protest exhibition | IMAGE.ie

'Victim blaming' comments in Cork rape trial spark outrage | IMAGE.ie

Comments made about an alleged victim's underwear in a Cork rape trial have sparked nationwide outrage against victim blaming.

https://www.image.ie/editorial/victim-blaming-comments-cork-rape-trial-spark-outrage-133993

Myfavouritepenguin · 18/08/2023 20:16

CurlewKate · 18/08/2023 20:07

@Myfavouritepenguin "Are you being deliberately obtuse? What if the pp did say the thing about the modesty/ lack of modesty? If these are fair terms to use to describe clothes then where’s the harm in using those terms among friends"
Isn't that what I'm saying? If I offered to lend a friend an item of clothing and she said "Sorry, I can't wear that-it's nor modest enough" I wouldn't be offended. I'd try and find her something else she could wear. No, I don't like the idea that women are constrained in what they can wear by their culture or their religion, but I'm not going to have that discussion when I want to go swimming and for her to come with me. BTW, I hate those shorts under little girl's dresses too.

I thought you were suggesting a different response not involving the word ‘modest’ but clearly I misunderstood and you do think it’s fine for a woman to reject another woman’s clothes as immodest.

I think the divide on this thread is not between religious and non-religious people but between those who understand how important language is and those who don’t.

Whingebob · 18/08/2023 20:26

Literally the only reason you're saying that is because you're petrified of offending Muslims.

Ehhh no

I'm quite happy to call out religions that do things I think are wrong.

Calling your style modest is 100% fine with me.

I can't see how you got not caring about 'modest' to being petrified of Muslims. I don't consider myself politically liberal either

Pollyputhekettleon · 18/08/2023 20:38

Whingebob · 18/08/2023 20:26

Literally the only reason you're saying that is because you're petrified of offending Muslims.

Ehhh no

I'm quite happy to call out religions that do things I think are wrong.

Calling your style modest is 100% fine with me.

I can't see how you got not caring about 'modest' to being petrified of Muslims. I don't consider myself politically liberal either

You know exactly why. In any other context, like the rape case I linked to, you'd understand perfectly well that calling a woman's clothing immodest is saying that she intends to attract sexual interest by wearing them, and that a negative value judgment has historically attached to that statement and still frequently does. You would absolutely be aware of the historical, and current, link between that attitude and victim-blaming for sexual harassment, assault, rape and child sex abuse. You absolutely would care. And you would be horrified that 4 year old girls are being forced by their parents to wear shorts that are 'intended to avoid attracting sexual interest'.

SalomeOtterbourne · 18/08/2023 20:39

PurpleChrayne · 18/08/2023 19:27

I'm a Modern Orthodox Jew and dress "modestly." I find tight, revealing clothes to be immodest, but that shouldn't offend anyone. It's just how I feel. I prefer to be covered.

Your user-name made me LOL!

Whingebob · 18/08/2023 20:47

@Pollyputhekettleon

It's a simple word, I'm not arguing with alla that

Shorts on girls is normal and fine under skirts. Underwear/knickers for girls is not as covered as for boys/boxers so it makes sense. It's possible that something could accidentally be shown if a child is active in a dress.

Children aren't forced to wear shorts any more than they're forced to brush their teeth, or forced to wear a coat on a rainy day. It doesn't deprive their quality of life. They do not care.

If my son was wearing a shirt dress and knickers for some reason , I might consider modesty shorts for him

Pollyputhekettleon · 18/08/2023 20:52

Whingebob · 18/08/2023 20:47

@Pollyputhekettleon

It's a simple word, I'm not arguing with alla that

Shorts on girls is normal and fine under skirts. Underwear/knickers for girls is not as covered as for boys/boxers so it makes sense. It's possible that something could accidentally be shown if a child is active in a dress.

Children aren't forced to wear shorts any more than they're forced to brush their teeth, or forced to wear a coat on a rainy day. It doesn't deprive their quality of life. They do not care.

If my son was wearing a shirt dress and knickers for some reason , I might consider modesty shorts for him

You're just going to keep pretending you don't know the meanings of the words modest and immodest no matter how many times I post it. You absolutely do care about modesty and you know exactly what it means. Another extremely dishonest one.

Girasoli · 18/08/2023 21:03

Lambiriyani it depends on the pool but IME they are very strict on not letting you wear anything that could be street clothes in the pool for hygiene reasons (no board shorts for men or t shirts over swimming costumes etc). I think a modest swim suit would be fine in Italy though as long as it was obviously swim wear (e.g. lycra)...DM always wears tankinis and I've taken my DC in rash vests.

Catusrusty · 18/08/2023 21:38

It is absolutely simple. If being covered up is modest, then being uncovered is immodest.

It's not rocket science.

It plays into the idea that women having any kind of bared flesh are immodest and therefore inviting male attention.

I've heard the same rhetoric applied to women covering their hair, that it is a sign of modesty. Clearly then uncovered hair is immodest. No other conclusion can be drawn.

An early poster said that isn't about you OP, but they are dead wrong, because the damaging idea that a woman's worth is weighed in terms of their perceived purity does in fact concern all women.

You are correct OP, and the terminology that these clothes are modest is deeply damaging , retrograde and flawed. It is the reverse of feminism. When you look at the sickening way this ideology is applied to the women of Afghanistan it is frightening.

Now you can say that's hyperbole, but look at the women of Iran. They could wear miniskirts until 1978. Look at America, the land of the free. Except women don't even have bodily autonomy.

Women's rights are hard won and so easily lost.

Clothing specifically designed to satisfy a religious requirement being described as modest, rather than religiously mandated is insidious to say the least.

I'd never wear a pair of Nike Pro hotpants myself. But I support every women's right to do so without the judgement that showing her legs makes her lesser.

GarlicGrace · 18/08/2023 21:49

loislovesstewie · 18/08/2023 18:34

Being of a certain age,i.e older, I can remember young women being berated for wearing clothing that was deemed to be immodest, young women being told that short skirts, 'too much' decolletage, etc made them little better than prostitutes. It might have been the swinging sixties and then the even more permissive seventies but many people still thought women should dress modestly. And that is exactly why I dislike the term, having been told that I should cover up and be more 'modest' I find the term objectionable.

Similar here. This usage of 'modest' really irritates me: they mean 'fully covered', so say that!

A modest amount means a small amount.
A modest person downplays their good points.
'Modest' clothing is not small and downplays nothing.

And, yes, it DOES imply that normal 'Western' clothing is immodest, by simple deduction!

GarlicGrace · 18/08/2023 21:51

Beautifully put, @Catusrusty.

TracyBeakerSoYeah · 18/08/2023 21:57

@Tartareistasty I think you are me - another internet sleuth 😂

Seriously it's quite easy to find modest clothes for men if you use the following search terms

'men modest clothing'
'modest swimwear clothing'

loads of shops/websites come up

Modest fashion
Modest fashion
Whingebob · 18/08/2023 22:07

Women's rights are not threatened by a tiny minority who choose to wear modest clothing😒

Women in Iran or Afghanistan don't have time to be debating clothing retailers selling a niche section of modest clothes either

Way too sensitive to take issue with 'modest' and see it is an insult to you, or saying that covering a girls lower half is akin to oppression of their childhood or something (forcing them)

GarlicGrace · 18/08/2023 22:22

Women's rights are not threatened by a tiny minority who choose to wear modest clothing full coverings

Not by the women themselves, but by the moral implications of the term 'modest'.

VikingVolva · 18/08/2023 22:24

I think there's more of a problem with those who see the opposite of modest as something perjorative.

I do not dress in accordance with modest standards. But neither do I have any difficulty in owning that choice.

BIossomtoes · 18/08/2023 22:35

Calibrachoa · 18/08/2023 19:56

If you Google Modest Clothing and click on Images and scroll down. You'll be scrolling for a very long time to find a photo of a man. In fact I gave up scrolling before I got to one, it's that rare.

It isn’t remotely rare if you Google the right thing.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=men%27s+modest+clothing&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-gb&client=safari

men's modest clothing - Google Search

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=men%27s+modest+clothing&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-gb&client=safari

malificent7 · 18/08/2023 22:38

Modest fashion is so chic...i like the term.

Tartareistasty · 19/08/2023 05:55

Let me explain this in easy British terms since even pics for illustration didn't help. 😂

It's a sliding scale. Like cheddar.
Existence of extra mature cheddar doesn't mean all other cheddar is mild or bad.
You have mild, mature (and different types within that) and extra mature.

Same with clothing.
Immodest (let's not pretend it doesn't exist), common as in standard where most people sit(and many types within that), modest.

Language evolves. Modest doesn't mean immoral etc in this sense. Same like staycation don't mean actual staycation anymore and include now stays within own country (anything to make not going abroad sound like not a proper holiday🙄).

Tartareistasty · 19/08/2023 06:01

@TracyBeakerSoYeah ha! Yes

The most likely reason why men's has to be searched with "men's" is down to the fact women shop clothes online way more than men and your own algorithm.
Even if I google "trousers" absolute most I get is women's trousers in results.

TracyBeakerSoYeah · 19/08/2023 06:42

@Tartareistasty now I want a cheese sandwich 😂

CurlewKate · 19/08/2023 07:09

It's perfectly possible to hate that women are forced by societal or religious pressures to conform to "modest" standards and simultaneously be glad that the spa is making sure women who are feel comfortable to swim. In the same way, women can dress "modestly" themselves without wanting to force other women to. Holding two ideas in your head at the same time-who knew that was possible!

Myfavouritepenguin · 19/08/2023 08:53

Language evolves. Modest doesn't mean immoral etc in this sense. Same like staycation don't mean actual staycation anymore and include now stays within own country (anything to make not going abroad sound like not a proper holiday🙄).

I find this very disingenuous. Yes, language evolves, but it’s not some inexplicable, natural phenomenon that’s separate from people and their culture and beliefs. Language evolves in accordance with social change. So in your staycation example, the widening of that term was heavily influenced by covid restrictions.

Can you not see that the creeping pervasiveness of the term ‘modest’ has some much more sinister associations than a word for a holiday? Women’s rights are being rolled back in various ways around the world, and meanwhile ‘modest’ slips silently into the online shopping lexicon. Women in Afghanistan can literally be arrested for perceived immodesty of dress, but you can’t see any problem with casually introducing that concept into western mainstream clothing retail?

The example with the cheddar was disingenuous too, to say the least! Those descriptors (mild, mature) are very neutral, as you well know, but what if one type of cheese had been historically banned (and that’s not as mad as it sounds - plenty of religions have strict rules around food) and was known as ‘illicit’ cheddar or ‘forbidden’ cheese?! Plenty of people would happily shrug off those historic connotations as irrelevant and meaningless, but what if those religious beliefs had a renaissance (like the lovely resurgence we’re having in misogyny). Should everyone just be comfortable with hearing their choices described in terms that others find deplorable, even if you don’t share those beliefs?

Words are not just words. Would you be happy with one of the ‘non-modest’ ranges of clothes being called ‘slut-wear’?? If not, why not?