The "strong female lead"

[Sarah5q]

Hi,
I'm basing this on reports about the new Snow White movie and how much the movie is being changed and it just got me thinking and I thought it'd be interesting to hear other people's opinions or perspectives.

I am a big fan of the original Snow White. She was my favourite princess growing up and I find it a shame that the story has been belittled in the upcoming movie. Yes, she was kissed by a prince at the end but surely the main concept of the film is kindness and her friendship with the dwarves?

This post could be super long if I wrote all my details but why does every female these days need to have a "strong" and "powerful " story?
What is wrong with being the "shy, quiet" one? Surely you can still be "powerful" in other ways.

And in the interviews, the actors are saying "Snow white won't be saved by a prince". Fair enough, it was all a bit quick. But rather than change that aspect entirely, why not just "fill out" the story and develop the relationship of snow white and the prince.
There are some women out there who do dream of having that family-lifestyle and having their happily every-after with their "prince charming". Not every woman wants to be that 'female boss" narrative that seems to be going around in Hollywood.

Maybe I'm completely missing the point or maybe I'm speaking rubbish and make no sense but I think I'm just tired of having that "girl boss" narrative rammed down my throat as if wanting to be anything other than that is "dated".

This is what made Moana so good. She wasn't a wilting flower (Disney haven't developed Princesses like that since the seventies). Moana is a leader, there's no question of her becoming chief because she's a girl, she works with her hands, she is resourceful, clever, puts Maui in his place and saves the day through empathy when Maui's physical attacks fail. Her and Maui bring out sides of eachother previously unexplored and gain wisdom and understanding from their relationship, which is platonic.

Rapunzal is similar. She swings about on her hair and uses a frying pan as a weapon but ultimately she and her love interest develop and grow, treat eachother with respect as equals. She sacrifices her freedom for him, he sacrifices his life and she saves him with the power of love.

Encanto was again great because Mirabel uniquely has no magic power and uses her insight and understanding to fix a fractured family and generational trauma. Would be quite a different movie if she high kicked the grandmother off the top floor of Casa.

So Disney have been writing strong female characters who work alongside males, without having to diminish men as they are strong without the need to put others down. Or use some fantasy strength to ass kick. They know how to do this well so I can't help but feel them messing with characterisation in low budget remakes is literally just for hate clicks and generation of controversy to keep the brand name out there.

Yes agree that some of the Disney cartoons were good and encanto is an example of a ‘new’ story that worked well. I know there’s the copyright issue but this remake of Snow White seems an unnecessary use of resources

I'm not a fan of updating original stories to fit contemporary thinking. The story of Snow White is of its time, and reflects the negative stereotypes associated with being female that have been our reality for centuries. I'd far rather they be out there in full view so today's girls understand how we were seen and portrayed, rather than pretend it never happened and erase it from our history.

And yes @Bruisername agree girls and women should not be sold the false narrative we can fight off men easily etc. It's effecting women's sports because people are allowing men to compete in the women's events and game, and it effects their safety if they think they're invulnerable.

See, i used to think snow white and aurora etc had nothing to teach us and should only be there as a historical account of sexism but these days I see the power in their characters even if it was unintended or not a main focus.

Cinderella for example is a survivor of hideous abuse. Yet she is so strong she can remain hopeful. In the original cartoon she doesn't even realise she has danced with the prince, she's just happy to have found love. (And remember, no one in the world loves her apart from mice and birds at that point) although the prince is a bit useless in the first, Disney did a couple of sequels which developed his character well (and give Anastasia a redemption arc, in a non try hard way like they do with current villains)

I also realised that whilst sleeping beauty is not feminist when Aurora is considered the focus, when you realise that the most developed characters with agency to influence the plot are all female (good fairies and a maleficent) you can see it does contain a good message for girls . Fauna, Flora and Merryweather are the heroes despite being middle aged and not as beautiful as a new day. (I think the new movies did a character assassination on them, sadly)

But isn't it interesting that Disney has all these sorrowful 'it was wrong then and is wrong now' warnings about race in old movies, but never about sexism? Very telling about how close we really are to being equal and why men writers are writing women-men hero's still in 2023.

With respect, I don't think men watch John wick and think they can take on a whole nightclub worth of people, they likely know their own strengths. Much the same as I'm sure most women know their own limitations when fighting a group of men. However it's not a bad thing to encourage a woman to fight back if an attack should arise. 🤷🏻‍♀️

I agree violence isn't something we should be condoning but on the flip side, to some extent it movies we are talking about and they do like to dramatise.

Maybe bolshy was the wrong word to use, bold would've been a better one.

However it's not a bad thing to encourage a woman to fight back if an attack should arise.

Actually, sometimes fighting back escalates violence and puts you in more danger.

Fighting back is only appropriate for women when there's a good chance of escape. These films never show violence in the defensive, it's always offensive.

And I do think men absorb those messages, or at least some do. I used to work with teenagers who'd seek out fights with multiple people because the media showed them to. Whose ambition was to join the army and because of the film's they watched they would think it would be all effortlessly ass kicking and playing with weapons.

As an adult who knows the physical limitations of men and women and they are grounded by our sex, you have a common sense you take for granted.

Girls today are being told there are no differences between the sexes and even that you can change sex. That alongside these kick ass females send a inaccurate message.

I think that generally in stories/movies that being "girlie" is regarded as being lesser. So in order for them to have a "meaning" they either have to take on traditionally male "strong" characteristics or be secondary to the strong male.

I can't remember if I've said it on here, but if you look at the Famous Five. Anne was the one I identified with. I agreed with her thoughts that I liked to wear dresses, play with my dolls and the best part of the adventure was making the cave into a house...
But I was told then, and people say it now that Anne was insipid, nothing to her, silly, could have done without her, a coward. George was so much better...
Actually George was stubborn, not always to her credit, bad-tempered and selfish.
But if you read the books properly Anne is quite a character. Yes, she isn't particularly keen on the adventure side-but she does it anyway. She's brave. Far braver to do it when you're scared than do it because it's an adventure and that's fun. She isn't afraid to speak up for what she knows to be right and she wants to help others. We know she's clever and also sporty at school.
I found as a child it was saying that my choices of what I liked were wrong. That it wasn't right to like what I did because it made me silly.

And it continues in adulthood. A woman who makes and decorates dolls houses I know, doesn't normally tell people because of the reaction she gets. But a man says he still supports the football team he supported as a child can tell everyone.

I think my issue with Anne was how she was used as their little servant and ran around after them like mummy.
With the famous five as well I think blytons own bias come across. I get the feeling she really disliked Anne and think she said in an interview George was based on her.

Its difficult isn't it because we are so used to equating action and fighting the way out of peril with entertainment, I doubt there would be much appetite for films where the day was saved through wisdom empathy and compromise. It seems that if a woman is to be worth watching, then she needs to depicted acting in the same way as traditional male heroes. Only with a tiny waist, long hair and beautiful face.

@MargaretThursday What a cool hobby! I love looking at miniature houses. There's a whole room of them at a stately home near to where I live and it's fascinating walking around it. I notice something new every time.

She liked the cooking side, so it was her choice. In one of the books, she's getting a meal ready and she bosses them all about to get the things she needs. From her brothers' reaction it's clear that she often does this. She tells them to do the washing up at various points, and they do it, so I don't think she was used as their servant, nor did she run around after them like mummy.

You could accuse Susan of that in Swallows and Amazons, written over a decade earlier. She's definitely into checking that they've remembered things, or are doing the right thing and telling them off if they've done something wrong and also doing all the cooking, often on her own or just with Peggy to help. However it's said more than once in the books that Susan is the reason why they're allowed so much freedom because they know she'll look after them and stop them doing anything silly.
However Susan gets nothing like the flack that Anne gets.

I shall have to read the originals again. Been reading the adult parodies like five on Brexit island, which, while hilarious may have clouded my view.

However Susan gets nothing like the flack that Anne gets.

I wonder if this is because we compare Anne unfavourably with George, who takes action "like a boy" and this, correctly?

I agree that Anne was brave to join in witht he adventures when it wasn't really her cup of tea. There are a few times when she really stands up for herself or others, so the courage is there, she just doesn't realise it.

Considering practically EVERY female Hollywood actress, when interviewed, claims to have been a 'shy introvert' when growing up.... then, BAM, they hit the big screen and they're playing the exact opposite in their character choices. I know it's called 'acting' and all that but, for once, it actually would be great to see a mainstream female character that DOESN'T overcome her innate introversion, shyness, unconfidence or any other perceived 'flaw' and yet still turns out a great movie.

I get the distinct impression Kristen Stewart is a shy introvert and she's done some really interesting roles. Not least Bella from Twilight, who everyone dismisses as a "Mary Sue" although she doesn;t fit the criteria at all - she frequently makes stupid choices. Everyone telles her sha can't do certain things and needs to be protected from her own decision-making, but she ends up proving them all wrong. Without throwing a single punch.

Actually, she did punch Jacob once. But apart from that...

I'd prefer if she hadn't been cast at all. She's incredibly beautiful but she cannot act.

I also wonder if we really 'need' another version of Snow White. I predict another Disney flop.

HowDoYouSolveAProblemLikeMariaa · 17/08/2023 11:37
It's an interesting question op, for we are still measuring women by how good they are at things men are biologically designed to do. Speed, strength, aggression. We don't ever seem to measure men by the things women are biologically better at though do we. Endurance. Flexibility. Nurturing. (Yes, yes, men and women can have both these qualities in abundance, but our physical and hormonal make up gives a head start.)
Female politicians for example are celebrated for being as aggressive as men (Thatcher, Raynor) and everyone ignores the fact that actually many women have good diplomacy and negotiation skills that are far more useful in leading. Nope. We celebrate those who imitate men best, even though in the modern era the men's way is not always the best way

So pleased to read this as I wondered if it was just me. Having taught in a v academic girls' school for years where the subtle narrative seems to be to imitate male achievement and not really encourage anything traditionally 'feminine', I've often wondered how much the adjoining boys' school actively encourages nurturing, multi tasking etc.
It'd be nice to think that equality would cut both ways.

Also
@HowDoYouSolveAProblemLikeMariaa
I'm in awe of your knowledge and analysis of the Disney oeuvre!

also don’t understand how gal gadot wouldn’t be fairest of them all - so suggests ageism to me as Snow White takes over at 18 because youth is valued in beauty standards for women. Not very woke..

They have said that the idea of "fairest" won't refer to beauty, but to an idea of most just and the best ruler...

Well on that basis how does the evil queen ever qualify? Is it restricted to the one kingdom? Bit pointless

@Lifeinlists thank you, it'd be my special subject on master mind.

Sad to hear that that message even gets pushed in girls schools. Perfect opportunity to celebrate and nurture young women and what a wasted opportunity.

It's interesting, because there does seem to be a sense of any comparison that negatively impacts men is unfair, but women it's just fine to do so. For example, today I had to explain that telling your child to find a lady with children if they lose you is good safeguarding based on crime statistics and is not 'sexism'.

I think the fact that there are several 'tomboys' is animation and no male equivalent tells you all you need to know about how valued girls really are. And that they are valued much more when upgrading to 'boy' status.

Also interesting that despite the target audience being girls, the Disney Princesses tended to have no female friends as late as The Princess and the Frog. Usually the format is one beautiful, nice, female character and animals and men around her. It's why I think Frozen and the 3d animations are often much more truly progressive than many of the remakes.