The "strong female lead"

[Sarah5q]

Hi,
I'm basing this on reports about the new Snow White movie and how much the movie is being changed and it just got me thinking and I thought it'd be interesting to hear other people's opinions or perspectives.

I am a big fan of the original Snow White. She was my favourite princess growing up and I find it a shame that the story has been belittled in the upcoming movie. Yes, she was kissed by a prince at the end but surely the main concept of the film is kindness and her friendship with the dwarves?

This post could be super long if I wrote all my details but why does every female these days need to have a "strong" and "powerful " story?
What is wrong with being the "shy, quiet" one? Surely you can still be "powerful" in other ways.

And in the interviews, the actors are saying "Snow white won't be saved by a prince". Fair enough, it was all a bit quick. But rather than change that aspect entirely, why not just "fill out" the story and develop the relationship of snow white and the prince.
There are some women out there who do dream of having that family-lifestyle and having their happily every-after with their "prince charming". Not every woman wants to be that 'female boss" narrative that seems to be going around in Hollywood.

Maybe I'm completely missing the point or maybe I'm speaking rubbish and make no sense but I think I'm just tired of having that "girl boss" narrative rammed down my throat as if wanting to be anything other than that is "dated".

Yes I'm aware of all that. Just pointing out that Disney and other shows started moving in the right direction but seem to have backtracked in recent years, falling back on poor versions of nineties tropes without the nuance.

I like the modern versions. I find it amusing that, with Snow White, everyone is arguing about a 1930's version of a story written over a century prior, which was similar but darker (dwarfs being starved children, etc). Disney's is not the original. The best a women could aspire to not so long ago was to be chosen as someone's wife, which is reflected in original Disney, and certainly isn't appropriate today. Original Disney, like Jane Austin are nice for nostalgia, but modern version is telling us that we don't have to do that any more. Okay the "girl boss" (hate that term) doesn't represent all women, probably not most women, but she isn’t supposed to - just like strong male kick ass leads don't represent most men, but surely elements of her can be empowering, even for the shy girl.

And I don't see a problem in both girl and boy taking turns at the saving. It happened in the original little mermaid as far back as the eighties.

These are not new ideas.

I don’t think we need to see more shy and quiet women who only dream of being picked by men

The classic Snow White story is not that however

They could just make new tales instead of bastardasing old ones.
Same with stupid movie and series remakes. I want strong female characters which are actually strong female characters made for us not some knock of male hero🙄 Fuck female hulk. Give me proper Medusa or something so I don't feel like picking remaining leftovers at buffet.

Want latino main star and good role model for latino kids? Why not actually use some latino folklore they grew up on? Same for various african and asian cultures. Lots of interesting folklore everywhere which could well be made into movie and introduce less known cultures to the rest of the word.

I am fond of Grimms versions. They should make that. What rating would they be tho 🙈

Yes really.

I loved Promising Young Woman and it’s incredibly powerful about physical differences and power imbalances. You’ve missed the point if you think the film is about a sassy woman kicking arse.

I haven’t watched most things on your list but it’s bit odd to take it outside the genre. Those aren’t Disney movies for kids, fairytales or targeted at love and romance. I wouldn’t complain about the lack of romance or aspirations for marriage in a horror film.

Terminator and Alien are great examples of this but they are more popular with men than women ime

@HowDoYouSolveAProblemLikeMariaa

I never said that they were new ideas. Just that the vast majority of films has men rescuing the women. And when men do play the damsel in distress, it is normally only for about five minutes and they are still shown as being fairly independent and resourceful, whereas women either wring their hands and pull worried faces, or sit and cry etc etc

But this trend is not showing that.

Many people haven noticed that the “modern strong female lead” is often a man in a woman’s body. In the past female characters were allowed a story arc to develop and win in the end. Often women would take a different approach to a man to achieve a “win” in a story line, yet modern writers seem to prefer creating a Mary Sue who seems to act like men.

Perhaps recognition of the idea that women can win by taking a different approach to men will return to stories, but for now we have to put up with the current boredom.

I feel you are arguing with a strawman here or have me confused with someone else. Suggest you go back and read my posts.

In terminator Sarah Conner and Ripley in Alien are actually more feminine than most modern characters. They adapt and overcome in spite of an inability to physically dominate.

Well, I love both of those movies. I actually I have always liked the kick ass female lead. There was a movie in the 90s with two women who were training for the FBI, one was brainy the other brawny, teamed up and it was a paint by numbers movie that appealed to my teen sense of er, girl power.

Sarah Connor was brilliant, her shift from her softer, anxious self in the first and her hard as nails form in the end was brilliant. And Ripley used technology and skills to (level up?) her physical disadvantage.

It feels like there was more space to see the transition of becoming someone more formidable, whereas now female leads just arrive on the scene and can level the opposition with a tight outfit and pithy distain for the opposition.

Both Sarah Conner and Ripley are examples of women valuing skills other than physically beating people up.
Both survive not due to their physicality but due to their ability to think outside the box.

With Disney's track record with the live actions, and to be quite Frank, the limitations of only one movie I can't see that kind of character growth occuring.

I suppose that its a bit beyond the current creative types to have strong independent women that fight aliens, zombies, vampires, werewolves, raid tombs, are spies etc.

Remaking and remoulding existing films shows just how weak the current crop of writers are.

As for the little mermaid, its more insulting that they couldn't find and adapt any of the amazing folk stories from around the world of which there is a huge verity.

Could it be she dreams of marriage because humans have a biological drive to reproduce? Forming relationships is key to that. I have known many men who grew up wanting to get married. Not sure I would say they were “dreaming” of it but it was hoped for (and I can’t think of any who didn’t).

Did all the men in your life grow up anticipating being batchelors?

That was more in reference to the OP asking why can’t we have more stories about shy and quiet women who dream of being married. Snow White from what I remember ends up being cursed by her evil step mum who is jealous of her good looks, she then lives with the dwarfs and ends up staying at home doing all the cooking and cleaning while they go out to work, she is saved when a Prince falls in love with her, so not really a great inspiring story for young girls. I can certainly see why they felt it should be modernised.

They could have easily move onto one of the sisters from the famous series.
Start if off with Ariel (since she is thw most famous) there for 5 min doing shenanigans with her sister to gain an interest and then do some solid story of adventure of the sister. They represeted different seas and different areas. Each could have great own story featuring the area? It could be perfectly and nicely representative of different people and cultures.
If that makes sense

I know, right? Considering practically EVERY female Hollywood actress, when interviewed, claims to have been a 'shy introvert' when growing up.... then, BAM, they hit the big screen and they're playing the exact opposite in their character choices. I know it's called 'acting' and all that but, for once, it actually would be great to see a mainstream female character that DOESN'T overcome her innate introversion, shyness, unconfidence or any other perceived 'flaw' and yet still turns out a great movie.

The only exceptions I can think of when it comes to actors portraying characters who don't reach the end of a movie having been 'cured' or 'improved' in some shiny-as-shit Hollywood way is Frances McDormand and, as she ages and is finally seen as a bloody excellent actor, Julia Roberts - her characters in both 'August: Osage County' and 'Secrets in their Eyes' were both very flawed and yet I was rooting for them and LIKED them.

Maybe this is why I watch way more independent cinema than Hollywood movies.

Edinburgh's Snow White panto last Christmas had the prince choke on the poison apple and Snow White have to save him instead. I thought that was a great twist!

Men and women both want to reproduce
Yet women are more hung up on marriage and the wedding then men

Marriage isn't a prerequisite for children

And it's useful to women because of how they get systemically disadvantaged

Slightly off track but my favourite strong female character who actually works as an interesting character who still feels real is Ellie from Jurassic Park. Here's why:

• She's an expert in her field. Holds her own in all intellectual debates, often delivering the crucial lines that win the argument. "You never had control, that's the illusion!"

• Gets involved in all the action scenes without superpowers. Looks scared and exhausted, surviving on adrenaline and nerve.

• Says she wants children in the future and does not fluster or backtrack when Alan says he doesn't.

• There's not a whiff of 'not like other girls' about her.

I wish we had more female characters like her about now

That would have been a good way to do it.

The t rex is qslo a strong female lead 😂

I definitely agree with there being room for a range of movie characters, so in some, it should be the shy quiet type, some the one who likes making jokes, some a strong character who isn’t physically fit and strong etc

I think the romance is a bit of a bad message if it comes in the form of the woman being saved or rescued because it’s not realistic. But obviously there’s room for movies with romance - those still exist though! I think it’s fine to have a version of Snow White without romance, especially as you’ve mentioned it’s not the main point of the story, and less important than her friendship with the dwarves etc