If you enjoy drag, to ask why?

[ForestGoblin]

I don't get it at all. It looks to me like a crude mockery of women. Even on the presumably somewhat sanitised RuPaul, the word for a "realistic" (ie could pass as a woman) drag queen is "fish"... A reference to being so womanly it's as though they have a vagina. I feel like they hate women and are performing all the things they find ridiculous about us in a really hammed up way. Making us seem bitchy and preening.

Also, more fundamentally, I don't understand the entertainment factor of "oh haha it's a man who looks a bit like a lady haha he's in a dress haha". So? On which note, how on earth are the lady boys of Bangkok still going strong with their tour. Don't give me oo the costumes and skillful songs and dances - as if people would go to see "the costumed dancers of Bangkok". There's some wow factor to seeing "ladyboys" specifically.

But loads of my friends love it. So it can't actually be as bad as I think. (Can it?)

Yanbu - drag is offensive to women or just not entertaining

Yabu - drag is awesome

I've never read any convincing argument that drag/woman face is different to black face. Saying its "an art form" is not a convincing argument.

Well said.

So be a man and dress in that way, play a male character with dresses and make up. That would be subverting gender. Playing a woman character with OTT stereotypes of women is cementing, not subverting gender.

Drag kings are not punching down.

Most of this is gay men exploring their love of theatre, dance, costume and the tradition of ''bitchiness'' in queer culture as well as simply rejecting gender stereotypes of how a man should present himself.

It is possible to do all that without the 'woman' persona.

I think you need to understand the origin.

For anyone who doesn't "get" drag, I would recommend you go on YouTube and watch the 5ninthavenueproject.

The "first" vlogger, a guy called Nelson Sullivan lived in New York during the mid 80s, surrounded by the entire drag/gay/trans scene. He either lived with or hung out with numerous celebrities, famous and infamous. He filmed his life, his friends and family, ordinary things that have become quite extraordinary. There is a now a museum dedicated to his life (he died of a hear attack in his early 40s.

There are literally thousands of videos on the channel, but they give an insight into why the performers do it. I think it will change a lot of people's minds about the scene.

Yes it's obviously older than the 80s, but contemporary drag has it's origins in this very scene.

It's just comedy. Not all comedy appeals to everyone and it never will.

Personally I really don’t find it offensive. I like the makeup, wigs, outfits and humour of drag race and have been to live drag shows too in gay bars. Love how OTT the outfits and humour are.

I don’t think it’s really making a mockery out of women. More that they’re poking fun at themselves for wanting to cross dress if I’m honest.

The comedy is often my cup of tea (although different queens have different styles). Often drag queens are so quick with their come backs etc because it’s a coping mechanism from people saying comments to them as kids / adults.

But I see how it could come across badly. I don’t think you’re being unreasonable for not liking it. It’s your opinion and we all have one!

So the “proper” drag acts I’ve seen have been more than the dress up, it was a whole show with jokes/ a persona/ singing and generally pretty good and witty. Not seen one for a while though but to me the difference is that unlike many in the trans movement they were also taking the piss out of themselves and in no way expected to be treated as women in other day to day circumstances (I don’t think many of them went and competed in a swimming race as a woman, or went to a breastfeeding cafe for validation the next day!) so on that level I didn’t personally feel that they were harming women kind in general. So I think I see a good drag act as being separate from the issues which come with the trans movement.

I used to like drag. Queens would point out that the idea of six inch nails and massive wigs being inherently womanly was nonsense and it was all about rejecting the trappings of femininity we have forced upon us. It was funny and crude but this was fine as it was confined to adult gay bars. It’s now much more mainstream which means people offended by it are going to see more of it. I don’t think Cheryl Hole should be on bbc shows about baking. It’s not some regular demographic it’s specifically adult entertainment. I bet they don’t have a stripper on there.

anyway, as I said for me drag was about rejecting stereotypes, gendered expectations etc. This morning I saw this of a queen who is however very clearly not subverting these, but making a mockery of women’s actual biological functions. Now I’m offended. Basically it’s gone too far. Which is a shame. He is pretending to spew milk from his comedy breasts if the image is not clear.

For the full show: https://x.com/rupaulsdragrace/status/1680642200969834496?s=46&t=R8lbgugSDFu9UAWd3OTT3w

I don't feel strongly enough to have an opinion either way. I've always loved the pantomime Dame, especially when its the hairy backed local bikers doing a charity show, but I know this is a world away from the misogynistic element. There are extremists and people who are happy to cause major offence in all niches.

I'd be interested in how a straight male comedian taking the piss out of gay men with offensive stereotypes would go down. In the way that was, apparently so funny in the 1950s/60s.

I don’t think it’s really making a mockery out of women. More that they’re poking fun at themselves for wanting to cross dress if I’m honest.

But why the 'woman' persona while doing it? Just wear the clothes and make up and take the piss out of yourself.

I don’t like drag and never have, but it’s only recently that I’ve begun to see that it’s offensive.

Before that I just thought it was a bit creepy because there’s always something creepy to me about people hiding who they really are and that the comedy is banal.

There’s a lot of posters on here saying drag can’t be compared to blackface because the artists performing it are talented and it’s entertainment- it does seem that said posters don’t get that blackface shows like the black and white minstrel show had talented singers, complex and impressive dance routines and great comedians and was still fundamentally racists and offensive at its core.

I agree with this entirely. It would be a bit like saying I like all comedy when I simply don’t. I don’t like the innuendo in any comedy (male, female, drag etc) as I don’t think it is very clever. I don’t get offended by the make up, dressing up I think a lot is brilliant but there are some drag artists that I do find offensive or plain old dull (just like comedians).

I have seen a handful of drag acts on stage over the years. they all made 'fish' jokes, which the audience seemed to enjoy. they weren't funny and their 'comedy' was all about mocking women. although I have been told they are not caricaturing women, but the stereotype of gay men

My friends are all really in to it. They love that Drag Race programme and go to Drag shows and say things like "Oh it's fabulous!".
I however, just don't get it. It's not that I think it's offensive to women or mocking women. I really don't mind that aspect of it and I don't think the main intention is to make fun of women. It's not because I find it crude and am offended by the sexual jokes and innuendo. That's all fine with me.
I just genuinely don't find that type of humour funny. It's all a bit OTT and obvious. I love comedy but I think I prefer more gentle, subtle comedy. I also like surreal, off the wall, clever comedy. The Drag style comedy I've seen is just a bit silly!

I don’t think that’s why people think it can’t be compared. It’s because blackface is without exception offensive. There’s a wide range of drag with only the extreme end of the spectrum being offensive.

This came to mind because of "Cheryl Hole" appearing on a cooking programme.

I was quite shocked to see this person on Masterchef last night. I'd never heard of them before so I googled and discovered the character was based on Cheryl Cole which I thought was quite offensive. The presenters referred to Cheryl & the two female contestants as "the girls". Cheryl also did a lot of shrieking and hand waving which I presume was them parodying a female.

I've always thought the "fish" reference was more along the lines of "catfish" as in they're so feminine looking they could pass as a woman and catfish men?

Especially when women in many parts of the world aren't able to legally and safely have abortions even if they are victims of rape.

Les Dawson wasn’t mocking women, he knew they had hard lives working in mills and factories where it was too noisy to talk so they had to devise another means of communicating with exaggerated lip movements. He also loved his MIL and she made him promise on her deathbed to not stop telling jokes about her.

Also the likes of Dick Emery and Stanley Baxter - they weren’t drag queens, they didn’t do exaggerated sexualised portrayals of women with huge wigs and loads of make up - they just acted. They both took the piss out of male stereotypes too.

I really don't understand the appeal, especially the lip sinking? Where's the talent in that?

😲

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