If you enjoy drag, to ask why?

[ForestGoblin]

I don't get it at all. It looks to me like a crude mockery of women. Even on the presumably somewhat sanitised RuPaul, the word for a "realistic" (ie could pass as a woman) drag queen is "fish"... A reference to being so womanly it's as though they have a vagina. I feel like they hate women and are performing all the things they find ridiculous about us in a really hammed up way. Making us seem bitchy and preening.

Also, more fundamentally, I don't understand the entertainment factor of "oh haha it's a man who looks a bit like a lady haha he's in a dress haha". So? On which note, how on earth are the lady boys of Bangkok still going strong with their tour. Don't give me oo the costumes and skillful songs and dances - as if people would go to see "the costumed dancers of Bangkok". There's some wow factor to seeing "ladyboys" specifically.

But loads of my friends love it. So it can't actually be as bad as I think. (Can it?)

Yanbu - drag is offensive to women or just not entertaining

Yabu - drag is awesome

I find a lot of drag artist's entertaining and funny. Really funny.

But some are misogynistic and, yes vile. One local to me was booed off for taking the piss out of an audience member, relentlessly until they walked out, and making fish jokes.

For me it's about picking and choosing.

@BIossomtoes "It was me who asked what we thought about Grayson Perry. I thought the connection was obvious"
To be honest, I don't see any link at all. Grayson Perry is a man who enjoys wearing stereotypical women's clothes while being an artist, a teacher, a writer. He does not make a career out of jokes about holes and sausages and fishy smells. Or wear comedy breasts.

Grayson Perry is a cross dresser not a drag queen

But it does mock the concept of gender though if done well. It mocks the idea that because they are men that they can not dress in or behave in a certain way and it mocks the concept of womanhood being associated with sex or make up and ideas around women not behaving a certain way. etc. Drag kings are increasingly a thing too. My friends drag night usually has a drag king performer on each line up now.

I mean sure there is drag badly done that completely misses the mark and there is inevitable misogyny because men, but that is not unique to drag sadly, but it is not by default misogyny.

Its funny because these threads are always full of "i liked Lily Savage but not that drag of today" posts despite Lily coming out with some vulgar stuff sometimes too.

That was basically the point I was making. Drag covers a huge range. There’s Grayson Perry and Shakespearean plot at one end of the spectrum and misogynist parody at the other, with pantomime somewhere in the middle. All are drag. I think we need to be a bit more nuanced.

The type where they dress up and do a tribute act can be quite skilled.
Misogynistic "humour" is wrong.
Acts with sexual references etc in adult venues... not my cup of tea but consenting adults can go to what they want
Dressing up in over the top costumes, with Misogynistic stage names, acting inappropriately as children's entertainment... worrying. (However if they dressed up as children's characters to read stories it would be different).

I find the 'what about Panto?' Argument strange. There's at least a balance, with plenty of female roles, and of course the 'leading boy' who is in fact a girl.

Re drag specifically, what i can never fathom is how you get members of society, who are generally hot on spotting misogyny often find drag fine. Fir the many examples given on this thread, it's really not.

I enjoy drag: funny, colourful, over the top and outrageous.

I think people have got really over-sensitive and are just trying to cancel everything...

If you don't like drag, nothing is forcing you to watch it but stop trying to prevent others from enjoying it.

Most of this is gay men exploring their love of theatre, dance, costume and the tradition of ''bitchiness'' in queer culture as well as simply rejecting gender stereotypes of how a man should present himself.

I don't understand how people think this is simply to make fun of women...drag queens make fun of everyone, themselves included.

Drag queens dress like this because they want to make themselves look good, not because they want to make fun of women...

I really would suggest people who seem to have completely misunderstood drag read a bit more about its origin and what the performers have to say about their lives.

Many were rejected by family and peers when growing up and drag gave them an outlet to express their creativity and become confident about being gay.

I am a feminist, an older one at that, and I really don't understand how there is so much focus on something that frankly is not going to impact women's lives negatively in the slightest. To me it just distracts from the real oppression of women and girls and that certainly does not come from Cheryl Hole putting on a dress...

I just see it as a type of comedy, as all the ones I’ve seen have had (varying degrees!) of comedic talent. Like all comedians, I find some funnier than others, but some I've found really funny. I have watched drag race and I see the make-up and dressing up as a form of costume craft / art. A lot of them make their own costumes which I find impressive and I admire the make-up the same as do a good face painter.

I do consider it adult entertainment though because I have yet to see a drag queen who doesn't use innuendo and adult themes in their routine.

@Greenwitchhorse agree with you 100%

You have articulated it much better than I did

I don't know how I feel about drag.

The fish thing etc is really misogynistic and I have no truck with that.

But - I don't accept that being female = performing stereotypical femininity either. So in that sense it doesn't feel like drag is taking the piss out of women, it's taking the piss out of a gendered stereotype that I don't accept anyway.

It's really not that deep. Yes, it's a crude joke, but Cheryl is a character. The performer is not a misogynist (which you'd know if you'd watched any RPDR UK) and is, in fact, a wonderfully kind and empathetic human being - much like the majority of drag artists in the mainstream. Not to say there aren't some who are crappy people (as you'd find in any profession/walk of life), but broadly the people I've seen on TV and the drag performers I've met in real life are progressive, thoughtful feminists who love women. It just looks different to your prescriptive view, and that's okay.

People calling drag woman face really fucking annoys me because it really isn't the same thing at all. Drag is artistic expression, it's comedy, it's political commentary. Blackface is outright racism and comparison of the two is ridiculous, given that drag performers are some of the biggest feminists and proponents of equality that I've ever known - try and find a person in blackface who believes in equality.

I wouldn't go out of my way to watch it but if it happened to be invited to an event where that's the entertainment, I'd probably go out of interest.

It was a friend's stag do last weekend. His friends dressed him as a bride for parkrun. It was funny, but I am conflicted as to why. Is it funny in its own right or funny becuase it's mocking women. IDK. I'm sure none of the men there intended to mock women, it was a gentle joke at their friend's expense, but I guess the roots are in "wouldn't it be awful to be thought of as feminine/ female".

I can take or leave it, but I (generally) don't find it any more offensive than any other random act. I do admire the make up artistry skills of some of the artists, despite not wearing make up myself.

Totally. Thank you @Greenwitchhorse.

"Its funny because these threads are always full of "i liked Lily Savage but not that drag of today" posts despite Lily coming out with some vulgar stuff sometimes too."
Of course Lily Savage came out with vulgar stuff. There is nothing wrong with vulgar in itself. I don't think that simple vulgarity is the reason for objecting to drag.

So it’s quite often stated on here that wearing make up and dresses etc does not define being a woman (this is always used in arguments about trans).

So why is this so offensive to women if make up and dresses aren’t exclusively “women” things. I’ve worked with a lot of drag queens through my line of work. They are all definitely men, men who like being men, and men who actually admire and respect women. It’s seems odd to be outraged that wearing makeup and clothing that has been stereotyped to females can be used as a means of “dragging” drag queens. They’re not pretending to actually be women. They’re men in drag. And lots of gay men who aren’t drag queens call each other “she” and “her”.

@Greenwitchhorse "To me it just distracts from the real oppression of women and girls and that certainly does not come from Cheryl Hole putting on a dress..."

I agree. But it does come from the mainstreaming of misogynistic terms like "hole".

I’m in the middle. I think some of it seems to stem from men’s love of women or wanting to emulate an iconic woman (have heard some drag artist talk about the important amazing women in their life) and some who seemed steeped in misogyny and crudeness. Like many things there is a spectrum and not everyone does it for the ‘right’ reasons.

I completely agree, I don't find it entertaining.
In fact I can't stand drag artists. Bizarre that anyone would find them entertaining in my opinion. Agree that it is childish humour than no one over the age of 14 should find funny or want to be a part of/encourage. Glad that one on master chef got kicked off last night so I can watch the rest of the week without feeling irritated.

No one is saying it should be cancelled.

It's just pretty clear to me that drag queens find women gross and ridiculous and I am bemused that so many women whoop away in the audience in the face of that message.

And yeah why is a man dressed as a woman "a show"?

If they are "simply rejecting gender stereotypes of how a man should present himself" why do we have to refer to them as "she"? And why do some have really offensive names like the odious Cheryl Hole?

Feminism isn’t open to any man who says he’s one.

Cheryl Cole is a real person - parodying her name in such a grotesque way is not kind or empathetic and is in fact deeply misogynistic

I’m really glad you asked this question as I felt I was in the minority.

I have no issues with drag or people cross dressing.
I absolutely love seeing a pantomime and the ugly sister is a man a man dressed as a woman as I think it’s brings a humour element to it.

But I don’t understand the pull of paying to go and watch drag shows.

If I want to go and see someone perform, I’ll go because I want to see the performance, not because it’s simply a man in drag.
If I want to see a woman strip then I’d go to a woman’s strip club.

I think drag shows are more provocative but I would rather see a woman doing it, if that’s what I want to see.

What really annoys me is the stigma around it (or lack of).
If someone went to a female strip bar they’d be called all sorts and some people will claim it’s cheating or all of the women are forced to be there etc (especially on MN) but if someone went to a drag show no one would say it was cheating, how disgusting it is or how they’re forced to be there.

There are many provocative shows that are just women (or just men) yet these are seen as bad, whereas apparently drag is not.

I'm looking forward to the drag queens wearing Boden frocks and white trainers.