If you enjoy drag, to ask why?

[ForestGoblin]

I don't get it at all. It looks to me like a crude mockery of women. Even on the presumably somewhat sanitised RuPaul, the word for a "realistic" (ie could pass as a woman) drag queen is "fish"... A reference to being so womanly it's as though they have a vagina. I feel like they hate women and are performing all the things they find ridiculous about us in a really hammed up way. Making us seem bitchy and preening.

Also, more fundamentally, I don't understand the entertainment factor of "oh haha it's a man who looks a bit like a lady haha he's in a dress haha". So? On which note, how on earth are the lady boys of Bangkok still going strong with their tour. Don't give me oo the costumes and skillful songs and dances - as if people would go to see "the costumed dancers of Bangkok". There's some wow factor to seeing "ladyboys" specifically.

But loads of my friends love it. So it can't actually be as bad as I think. (Can it?)

Yanbu - drag is offensive to women or just not entertaining

Yabu - drag is awesome

Why are the TRA not all over drag acts?

Some were - RuPaul had an item in Drag Race called "You've got she-mail". This was taken out. He was also very clear back in the day that the art of Drag was very different to transsexual and was just a liberating costume, very clear on his own identity as a man and didn't conflate the two.
It was only when the trans umbrella was widened to include transvestism/cross-dressing (which again, one can argue is different to drag performance) and transgender as opposed to transsexuality, that RuPaul was pretty much told he had to educate himself so as not to get cancelled.
You now have drag acts/drag performers (this is the neutral term for a pp) who are transwomen, transmen, or women.
e.g.
Transwoman - Peppermint
Transman - Gottmik
Woman - Victoria Scone
There are also many performers who transitioned after being on drag race, and who now identify as transgender (or non-binary) and several who have competed on the show as trans from the start.
So RuPaul has performers who already have implants or in Victoria's case her own breasts or in Gottmik's case a female silhouette, as they've had to change the goal posts because of pressure from the community to be inclusive. Drag is now exploring different sides to yourself without drawing distinctions.
India Willoughby said they disliked drag because they felt it wrongly implied being transgender is just about “dressing up."

None of the other celebs come on in character

I'm sure back in the day, Kenny Everett and Barry Humphries did just that.

@SequinsandStiIettos "If you don’t want to be called out by women, don’t put a dress on and then call yourself “Hole”.

Tell that to Courtney Love"

I'm assuming this is ironic, or a joke, or whatever part of speech that indicates you know why this is a false equivalence?

They were on celebrity masterchef?

A propos, when Barry Humphries said of transgender, "it's a fashion — how many different kinds of lavatory can you have? And it's pretty evil when it's preached to children by crazy teachers," one of the comments was that he was a "female impersonator" rather than a drag queen (i.e. difference between those two things as well).

RuPaul originally said, "I believe that everybody, you can be whatever the hell you wanna be. I ain’t stopping you. But don’t you dare tell me what I can do or say. It’s just words. Yeah, words do hurt… You know what? … You need to get stronger. You really do, because you know what, if you think, if you’re upset by something I said, you have bigger problems than you think."

As I said, I'm just in it for the sequins. I loved Kenny Everett, Julian Clary, Tim Curry growing up. I love parades and glam and costume (Miss Congeniality is my comfort film). So drag doesn't offend me as I see it as embracing femininity/rejecting masculinity rather than performative/taking the piss.

Am off to watch Masterchef now.

I’d bet my house that if Barry Humphrys had done Masterchef it would have been as Dame Edna.

I absolutely hate it. Horrible. Not even funny or relateable

I was thinking more Blankety Blank etc
Barry Humphries was a legend.

I remember giggling over panto dames and the two Ronnies dressed up as cleaning ladies etc when I was a kid. And when my kids were younger we'd have a giggle when my son and daughter wore each others pjs because my big chunky boy shaped boy looked so incongruous in pink frills.

I do think that's very different from the drag acts who are getting a lot of airtime wearing outrageous, sexualised outfits and using names relating to sex and female body parts.

I think it's partly about the sexualisation of it and the disrespect towards women, and it's also because back in the day nobody was pretending Ronnie Barker was actually a woman because he put on a flowery dress and fake boobs. Ok the old silly drag was a bit disrespectful towards women but they were equally disrespectful towards, say opticians or estate agents when doing a skit about them. It wasn't about misogyny. And often they'd talk about how put upon women were by men at the time etc.

Them I found funny. Also Dame Edna and Lily Savage who were incredibly witty and were channelling women they actually knew/had observed. And they didn't once think they were actually women.
Not so much Danny La Rue and as for today's current crop, they are too sexually explicit. And none are based on actual women.

I love it. I've seen some amazing drag acts over the years.

Watched it (well the parts Cheryl was in). They came, they cooked, they lost. Were they entertaining in this? Not especially, I laughed once when they said "Magic! Magic!" when the pudding was so set, it could be lifted. But that's a personality thing rather than a drag thing. Lily Savage before Paul decided to retire her, was very funny, went on This Morning etc
And they didn't once think they were actually women. and neither do all drag artists. RuPaul is very clear on who he is. So is The Vivienne.
And none are based on actual women which was my point earlier. I don't see appropriation if the characters couldn't be further than the reality. I'm trying to think of any women who are similar (apart from the OTT nature of duck face selfies) and can only think of Gemma Collins...who is playing a character/parody of herself in The GC and knows exactly what she's doing.

Dame Edna was far more about satirising petty snobbery than gender. Although a big part of her act was the in-joke with the audience that she was the most delicate, feminine example of a woman you could ever possibly encounter, and wasn’t it sad for the poor ladies who couldn’t quite compete, bless them. But the joke was the absurdity of a man in a dress saying that. You weren’t supposed to believe it. She also only ever referred to sex in the context of laughing at male sexual appetites. The character herself was generally bemused and often disgusted by the concept. Not in any way the same as the kind of drag acts mentioned here.

I'm not a fan. I don't like pantomime either. I agree it is misogynistic and mocks women. I'll add in Grayson Perry and his ridiculous outfits as well, I don't really care what people do in their private lives but I don't necessarily want to see it or be party to it.

I don't really care what people do in their private lives but I don't necessarily want to see it or be party to it.

Unfortunately, they really, really need you to see it and react to fully enjoy it.

Only people who are exhibitionist/autogynephilic/out to shock need you to react.
All performers want to be seen and appreciated - that's neither unusual nor unacceptable. Even those of us who are not performers like to have our egos stroked from time to time.
Whilst I don't particularly need attention or validation from those around me, it's nice to have a compliment or a thank you, akin to applause i'm never going to get applause in my job

I like to geek out so I spent some time looking at drag artist names.
From 514 names, you can say that 10 are misogynist (Cheryl Hole, A'Whora, Kandy Ho, Maxi Shield, Cookie Kunty, Ginger Bitch, Pandora Boxx, Penny Tration, Ginger Minj, Juice Boxx)
Sister Fibrosis, JonBenet Blonde, Detox Icunt and Bitch on Arrival all had to change/modify their names. The worst of those imo is disablist not misogynist.

I like puns as I've said, including user names on here (SuePerbly etc). It harks back to days of supply teaching when the paper registers you'd get back would inevitably have Ben Dover, Theresa Green, Annette Curtain, Hugh Jarse and Phil McCrackin written on them in juvenile script.

From 514 performers on RPDR, many names aren't puns at all. The UK and Australian drag acts seem to like plays on words more than the States.
The majority of these have nothing to do with female genitalia or slurs against women. Many are lame/forced however and even RuPaul has been WTF.

For anyone who is interested otherwise move on sashay away
Brand names: Minnie Cooper, Jan Sport, Brita Filter (latter two had to drop surname on RPDR)
Drugs: Kita Mean, Crystal Methyd
Objects: Barbie Q, Plastique Tiara (oof!) Elektra Fence
Foods: Tia Kofi, Baga Chipz, Shuga Cain, Kim Chi, Sminty Drop, Black Peppa
Places: Cheddar Gorgeous, Brooke Lynn Hytes, River Medway, Monet X Change
Not female: Yuri Guaii, Faux Fur, Sum Ting Wong
Not out: Heidi N Closet, Charlie Hides
Personality: Ivana Vamp, Imaa Queen, Mimi Imfurst, Amadiva

There are plays on female celebrities other than Cheryl Cole (who incidentally was on the panel when Cheryl Hole performed).
These include: Tina Burner, Enorma Jean, Choriza May, Kendall Gender and Rachel McAdamsApple (the latter was a one-off).

In the vein of Scissor Sisters icon Ana Matronic: Farrah Moan, Charity Kase, Gia Metric, Minty Fresh, Elektra Shock, Hannah Conda

In the vein of Friends fictional Helena Handbasket: Ella Vaday, Courtney Act, Kitty Scott-Claus, Aubrey Haive, Rita Menu,

Performers like Danny Beard and Conchita Wurst were hirsute
Joe Black, Derrick Barry, Lawrence Chaney all used own names. Bob the drag queen thought it was funny (audience member hadn't heard their name and thought they were called Kate before descending on Bob)
Vanessa Williams chose the name Vanquisha De House for her alter ego

Conchita wasn't on RPDR obvs but I was pointing out that facial hair can also be part of the persona.
From all the names above, I loved Choriza May, a Spanish-British drag act. The name just tickled me. Then Ella Vaday, Cheddar Gorgeous and Farrah Moan.

The drag King Elvis Herselvis's name is inspired.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=eOR2GdZ1mVk

Absolutely NO Misogyny here...

I have never found Lily Savage character funny
but i liked Paul o Grady when he was being very much himself,
I also liked Dama Edna tv series with Julian Clarey back in the day early 90s era,

I have liked other camp characters on tv

Also like pantomimes family entertainment ones
Drag artists

It's just the really crude ones drag artists i just don't get understand their kind of humour being classed as entertaining art at all...

i find it grotesque aesthetically and I don’t get the joke. What is funny about it? Where is the humour?

I find it extremely creepy.

I think dressing as women was normalized by comedians and pantomime dames (who always made risqué jokes to make the adults in the audience laugh) and it’s gradually slid into being more publicly misogynistic (previously proper drag was a bit like burlesque - not mainstream adults only) but it’s then very difficult to draw that line of where it slips into being offensive.

A lot of misogyny is like that and I would add that there are many things in society that reflect this but are so common we often don’t even notice them, such as men being taken more seriously and listened to more. I also think there’s a push to normalise sexual behaviour that would previously have been seen as deviant and I think that’s going too far too.

I don’t know what to do about it though, other than pointing out when it’s really stepped over that line and perhaps complaining to the TV station that’s putting that material out.

I feel like they hate women and are performing all the things they find ridiculous about us in a really hammed up way. Making us seem bitchy and preening.
Cant speak for all of them but this is 100% not the case for my friends who do drag. The friends I've known since we were children.

I don't generally watch drag shows but a few years ago I was on a girls' night out (Ladies Night, special meal, music and dancing) with a comedian who was a drag performer.
Sadly, this chap, 'Pussy A-Plenty' or similar, wasn't at all funny but he got increasingly crude really, really crude and finally, downright insulting and offensive to the many groups of women in the room. He wasn't getting any laughs and ended up quite nasty and aggressive, perhaps because we weren't adoring him uncritically.

Looking back, he was just mocking femininity and the entire act was performative misogyny. He deserved the reactions he got.

Having also viewed video clips of inappropriate behaviour around children at DQ story hour I can't say I'm much of a fan.

It's practically by definition misogynist. A drag queen called Cheryl Hole appeared on Masterchef and this was considered completely OK.

No, it's not the same as pantomime.
No, drag acts are rarely, if ever witty.