AIBU to think there should be something we can do about bullies

[TiredMum30]

My 12 year old daughter started secondary last Sept, she's been relentlessly bullied by the same group of boys and a few girls throughout the whole school year. We've been constantly on at the school but nothing has really been done other than they've had "words" with them, the occasional "sanctions" and the school have said they've spoken to their parents but it's continued.
We live near a large park that has a skatepark inside, most days during the holidays we've been going to the park with the dog and my DD uses the skatepark, some times this group of kids who have been bullying her have been there, but while I'm there they've mostly kept their distance from her. Maybe about 5 times I've been unable to go but have been at home so only a few min walk away so my DD has gone with her sister. A couple of times these kids have also been there and have proceeded to harass my DD and attempted to grab her skateboard out from underneath her or ran off with it and thrown it, they never bother her sister whose also in the same year. I have turned up each time and they've all ran off as soon as they've seen me approaching but the last time she went with her sister there was a physical altercation between my DD and another girl, but ultimately it came down to her word against my DD's unfortunately. My daughter was hurt.

AIBU to think that my 12 year old daughter should be able to safely go to our local park like other children her age without being harassed and bullied? And AIBU to think there should be something that can be done about them? Surely they can't just do as they please with no repercussions? I'm tempted to get the police involved however I don't want to make it worse for my DD. I've even considered switching schools or moving out of the area so she can start afresh but that would mean uprooting our other 2 children, 1 of which is taking his gcses next year. I'm just at a loss as what to do 😔

I would get the police involved. They are over the age of criminal responsibility, and physically assaulting your dd and damaging her property. You might be doing every one a favour by getting the police involved

My lovely daughter was bullied horribly at school, so I know what it's like to be on the receiving end.

I think bullying is always going to be with us. It's an element of group dynamics in it's rawest form and must derive from biological/evolutionary impulses to drive out those perceived as weak or unlike the rest of the group.

I really wished I could have told my daughter that it was only a child thing - but we all know that bullies simply learn to be more socially acceptable and to mask their behaviour or bully in a much more subtle way.

I don't think therapy or any other interventions are going to stop it. I would go against current thinking and take the focus off the bullies and their problems and put it massively on the victims to make sure they are as protected as possible. OK - I can't give much detail on how this might be done, but I'm sick of hearing about the need to understand bullies. I do understand bullies, I can assure you! They get their kicks and improve their self-esteem/social standing by making others miserable. Some may genuinely be psychopaths or sadists.
I'm not really interested - I would just like schools (at least) to weigh in heavily on the side of their victim.

Btw - many bullies in my experience are academically able, popular and pretty/handsome with happy home lives and loving parents. They're not all sad cases - and this is a dangerous myth.

Send your child to martial arts. And yourself - complain to every possible channel. Flag up with SS. Neglected, unsupervised children in need of intervention, drugs possibly...

Why are parents never responsible?

Parents aren't there (in school) to supervise and intervene.

I explained to my child bullying usually means they have had bad childhoods

Everyone has a bad/tough childhood. No excuse. "Bullies are the primary victims" mentality has done immense harm for several generations already.

Btw - many bullies in my experience are academically able, popular and pretty/handsome with happy home lives and loving parents. They're not all sad cases - and this is a dangerous myth.

But how do you know that they haven't had any significant issues, just because they happen to be pretty or bright? Maybe it's 'just' a personality disorder, but how else do you explain people who decide that they want to attack and destroy other people for no purpose and with no trigger?

If you look at prisons - an enormous proportion of the residents there have underlying 'challenging' circumstances and disadvantaged backgrounds in one or more ways.

Even if nothing else, it's almost always exacerbated by neglectful parenting. Most half-decent parents would be horrified to discover that their child is a bully - and they are made aware of it before long - and would stamp right down on the behaviour, addressing any identified or potential causes with professional third-party assistance where necessary.

To just shrug, do nothing and not care that your child is making other children's lives a misery and hurting, upsetting and making them feel unsafe is clear proof that your child does NOT have loving parents. Even if you don't care about other people's children, you'd think that cheerfully helping your own child along the path that very frequently leads to prison as they get older is not the kindest form of parenting.

Your poor daughter, it’s so horrible isn’t it and must have been wrenching for you as parents.

I have been looking at schools and some are very good at minimising and stamping out bullying. So I think this is possible. Bullying families are trickier as it’s harder to sort things out inside a home with SS. But in schools there is a lot more control, they can ensure that kids are well supervised for a start and any bullying is nipped in the bud. My DS has SN and I am specifically looking for a school with effective anti-bullying and believe me there are some good ones.

I can see a number of parallels between the reactions to children who are bullied at school and to women who are the victims of male violence.

There is far, far too much urging to #bekind and show understanding and compassion, along with making out that the victim must have done something to 'deserve' it - or at least to 'provoke' it. The victim is expected to have a level of agency for other people's behaviour choices that those people aren't expected to exercise for themselves.

Get whatever help you need; or if you won't, accept your deserved, effective punishment or other restriction on your freedoms - but it is never the responsibility of your victims to somehow 'not let you make them your victim'. However bad your life may have been, nothing justifies you making a random other person's life bad in a twisted attempt to seek 'revenge' and to gain personal closure or self-esteem.

I want to see senior school bullying become a criminal offence. The age of criminal responsibility is 10. If the bullies could be found guilty of a criminal offence it would mean they can never do a job that needs a DBS. Consequence.
I have 2 reasons for this. My adult daughter's life is still massively impacted by the bullying she had in school. Also, one of the worst bullies in my school ended up as a very senior Police Officer. I mean v v senior. Appalling.

Please don't follow the "fight back" advice and don't allow your DD to believe she's at fault, which is what the "fight or flight" advice tends to cause.

The people at fault at the bullies. Your DD has every right just to continue being herself, doing what she's doing. Don't make it her fault! The school need to deal with the bullies to stop their behaviour.

Schools need to do a hell of a lot more. I was horrendously bullied back in the 80s and can't believe that 40 years later, schools and teachers have not got on top of it.

Complain, complain and complain again to her form teacher, subject teacher (if it happens in lessons), head of year, headteacher and chair of the governors. Don't let them fob you off. Complain and document/evidence every single instance of bullying, preferably by emailing full details to those people EVERY SINGLE TIME!

Also complain about instances where a teacher stupidly puts your DD in a position where she can bullied by the known bullies, i.e. if the teacher's seating plan puts them together, or where the teacher puts your DD in a small group with a known bully (i.e. in sports, tech, music, drama, art, etc). That's the kind of stupid thing some of my teachers did because they always did it alphabetically and two of my bullies were each side of me by alphabetical surname!

@FatherJackHackettsUnderpantsHamper

Btw - many bullies in my experience are academically able, popular and pretty/handsome with happy home lives and loving parents. They're not all sad cases - and this is a dangerous myth.

I agree, that's my experience too. My bullies were actually the more able, popular, sporty kids, often on the school sports teams, leads in school plays, etc. I think that's how they get away with it because they're "liked" by the teachers who don't believe what obnoxious little sods they really are!

I initially shied away from the "troubled" pupils in my form and classes - the ones who were always in trouble, often late, disruptive, some dirty/smelly, etc., who clearly had "home" problems, as I believed the stereotypes that they're more likely to be bullies etc. In the event, the opposite was often true, and some of the ones I initially tried to avoid turned out to be much nicer, kinder, and more supportive, friendlier, etc., and most importantly didn't bully or belittle me in the same way that the "popular" kids did!

Also, one of the worst bullies in my school ended up as a very senior Police Officer. I mean v v senior. Appalling.

Bullies, psychopaths, and bad faith actors intentionally choose professions of authority. Many end up in teaching too.

I often wonder if some teachers who ignore/minimise bullying were in fact bullies themselves - perhaps that's why some try to blame the victim - they see it as a weakness, just like the reason they'd have been bullies a few decades earlier!

I often wonder if some teachers who ignore/minimise bullying were in fact bullies themselves - perhaps that's why some try to blame the victim - they see it as a weakness, just like the reason they'd have been bullies a few decades earlier!

This exactly. Also they do take it out on a child if they dislike a parent/family/sibling.

Also complain about instances where a teacher stupidly puts your DD in a position where she can bullied by the known bullies, i.e. if the teacher's seating plan puts them together, or where the teacher puts your DD in a small group with a known bully (i.e. in sports, tech, music, drama, art, etc). That's the kind of stupid thing some of my teachers did because they always did it alphabetically and two of my bullies were each side of me by alphabetical surname!

Yes, the teachers who know exactly what will happen, but still merrily send the victimised children into the lions' den anyway.

If you turned up at parents' evening and started name-calling, belittling, threatening and making digs at these same teachers, they would undoubtedly (rightly) ask for you to be removed; but when it's kids, it seems like they just need to roll over and accept it.

Everything in writing, even if it is a telephone call with the school follow it up in writing to confirm what was said. I installed one of those apps that records all calls meaning I could transcribe the phone call but obviously not use that in the email but very similar language to confirm what was said.

Get their bullying policy which is almost always on their school website under policies. Also look at their safeguarding which is the key word here, your daughter is entitled to feel safe whilst at school. Pull them up on where they are failing. Don't give up, every time there is an incident you need to be all guns because sometimes with schools that is all they care about.

For the park incident with taking her skateboard, police. Let the little shits know how serious it is. There is often a police officer assigned to a school too. Diarise every event, have a specific notebook or app for notes on your phone (better as accessible at all times) write everything that happened, what you then did and what school did or didn't do. Let the police know she has ASD and you think she is being targeted because of that.

Re school, if there is another school she could attend consider that. Moving a child for year 10 or 11 is almost impossible due to GCSEs, (thinking of your eldest) even if they are the same exam boards it does not mean they are taught in the same order.

And for your lovely daughter, not that this massively helps but tell her that there must be something very special about her that makes her their target. The opposite of love is not hate, it is indifference. There is something that they want to reduce in her, it can be a jealousy of something about her. They seek her out, notice her. So she clearly has something that puts her on their radar.

Both my sons did martial arts from primary school. Great for discipline and teaching them wrestling and grappling so it isn't something new when thugs try it in school. Came in handy the first few weeks of year 7 when another year 7 kid thought that my son looked like an easy target. Boy was he wrong, he wasn't hurt by my son just mortified and embarrassed that my son was so good at deflecting punches and kicks. I wish I had been there. It ended when my son had hold of his foot at waist height and the bully was hopping around like an idiot trying to keep his balance. Ds could have easily lifted his foot higher and swept his other leg but didn't want to be seen as the aggressor. Other kid got isolation, mine did not.

Calm the police. Tell them they are stealing her board from her

But

Realistically speaking as someone who was bullied for years she needs to stand up to them

Also look at their safeguarding which is the key word here

Yes, it always helps to use that word when raising concerns, especially in writing, as it rightly acts as a trigger that can't just be ignored and swept under the carpet.

Also, don't allow them to downplay your child's needs by centring the needs of the bullies. Hit right back (metaphorically, obviously) by demanding that your child's needs and safety, and right to attend school without fear, be considered every bit as important as any other child's. Unashamedly be an advocate for your child.

If they don't take you seriously with this, tell them that you will be keeping comprehensive records of all of your bullying reports and their responses, in case the victimisation leads your child to school refusal (or a need for you to keep them at home for their own safety) - so that you cannot personally be blamed and will have full evidence that the solution has always been in the school's own hands. Sad to say, many schools will care far more about potential low attendance figures than they will about stamping down on bullying.

Also, don't forget that one very common trait of bullies is practising DARVO and entirely misrepresenting the facts to teachers.

If your child retaliates to their perpetual aggression and grinding down in any way, be fully prepared for your child to be the one who is punished and shamed.

If your child retaliates to their perpetual aggression and grinding down in any way, be fully prepared for your child to be the one who is punished and shamed.

Sometimes it's worth taking the "shame" from teachers over being attacked and harassed by peers. What can really the school do? Give you detention/isolation? Or not give you the start of the week sticker? Not like they are going to beat you with sticks like in the past.

FatherJackHackettsUnderpants
But how do you know that they haven't had anysignificant issues, just because they happen to be pretty or bright? Maybe it's 'just' a personality disorder, but how else do you explain people who decide that they want to attack and destroy other people for no purpose and with no trigger?

I'm sorry, Father Jack, but I just don't care. I'm not interested in any of this - I think the attention should be taken off bullies and focused on their victims.

I would explain it as follows: the human race contains some individuals who are psychopathic and even sadistic. Sometimes this is innate (look at Jeremy Bamber - very privileged upbringing - and others). I know it's not fashionable to believe some people are born bad, but I think they are. It's about power and 'the will to power', an important human motivation.

Psychopathy is a useful trait biologically speaking - many leaders are psychopaths and their ruthlessness allows them to advance socially, professionally and financially. It doesn't have to mean they're serial killers - they just have a lack of empathy and compassion which makes their lives easier and facilitates them achieving their goals without distraction of guilt or worrying about others.

Bullies must positively enjoy their cruelty - they are sadistic - someone else's suffering brings them pleasure. This would be my explanation, and if you've never witnessed this kind of thing you are lucky indeed!

I've seen too much bullying, both as a parent and a teacher, to have any care or interest in the motivations of bullies. I just want them stopped in their tracks and the victims made the focus of all the interventions and efforts.

JazbayGrapes · Today 12:03
I often wonder if some teachers who ignore/minimise bullying were in fact bullies themselves - perhaps that's why some try to blame the victim - they see it as a weakness, just like the reason they'd have been bullies a few decades earlier!

Sadly I think you're right, Jazbay. I've heard many staffroom comments which fall into this category:

'Yeah, but you can see why they pick on him, can't you?'

"He's just asking for it!"

"I hate that kid....'

All said by teachers I've worked with.

Jazbay
Bullies, psychopaths, and bad faith actors intentionally choose professions of authority. Many end up in teaching too.

I agree. The link below shows a victim confronting his school bully (now a Judge in the US). The former bully was certainly embarrassed, and I discovered that he later had to resign his position and make a public apology.

I remember when I was on my first teaching practice at a big comp in Brum. there were 4 of us (PCGE students) and the Deputy Head in particular zoned in on one young man and made his life a living hell, reducing him to tears while actually at school. One Monday we arrived to find he'd 'disappeared' and had left the course. Whether he would have failed anyway is beside the point - the way he was treated by this horrible man was appalling. There are ways of dealing with weak teachers (in this case a young student teacher) and this wasn't the right way.

(I should add that I have 3 head teachers among my friends and they are very kind people!! But I've always been wary of the 'top brass' in teaching since this experience above.)

Thanks everyone, there's too many replies for me to reply individually to them all but you've all given me some really useful info and advice.

Unfortunately we bumped into a group of these kids this morning. we was out walking the dog and my DD and her sister was ahead of me because the dog stopped to have a sniff, my girls turned a corner and I immediately heard some boys mockingly shout my dds name repeatedly, they obviously didn't see me to begin with. I lost my temper with them as it seems now she can't go anywhere without bumping into some of them. I told them to leave her alone, if they so much as speak to her, touch her or touch any of her things again then I will hand over their names to the police for harassment, some of them got gobby (one in particular) but they soon cleared off. I wasnt very polite in how i gave them that message either so hopefully now they'll see we've had enough and we're not just going to let them get away with it. I did also take a quick snap of them so i can forward it to the school so they can id some of them for us because despite what I said to them we unfortunately don't know all of their names as some are not in my dd lessons and some my dd only knows by their first names. I would rather they're identified so the school are aware of whats been happening and who was involved during the holidays before my dd goes back to school. I'm hoping I've not made it worse but I was just so pissed that as soon as they saw her they deliberately went out of their way to piss her off rather then just leave her alone, they had started to approach her before I came around the corner, so i dread to think what would have happened had I not been there.

Regarding the school, we have complained numerous times and i have recited their bullying policy back to them, i had also asked to see the entries involving my daughter and these children in the bullying log book that they supposedly have because I'm not sure I 100% believe that they have logged every incident. They refused due to data protection.
I have asked for the details for the governors as we've been unable to find any details online but so far they've refused to give us the info we need and said we need to follow their policy prior and would need a meeting with the school even though we've had numerous meetings. At our request they have changed her classes around so hopefully she won't be in any lessons with some of the bullies from Sept, however our list of names has grown since so I'm praying once we can identify who they all are she also won't be in any lessons with them either.

I'm not a 100% sure that these kids know that she has ASD, my DD is not very open about her diagnosis unless its someone she knows really well. But she has had some difficulties in lessons which does make her stand out from the rest and you can tell just by talking to her that her brain works differently as she's very literal in the way that she speaks. So although I don't think they know that she has ASD, they do know that there is some special educational needs there at the very least.

I do agree that some teachers do tend to minimise and ignore the bullying and it is something our dd has endured during lessons when some of these bullies have openly hurt or bullied her during lessons and the teachers haven't done anything to stop it, but if my dd has lost her patience with them and yelled at them to leave her alone or she's hit one back she's been in trouble. Until I pointed out that perhaps they should take more notice of what's going on in the classroom because they're ignoring the fact that my dd is being bullied right in front of them.

Going by my DGC they just have to stick it out (they've had worse - school not very effective but they will not move schools)

Having a good group of friends helps. Getting older helps (my oldest DGC doesn't care now she's in Year 10, she ignores the idiots)

See if any of the staff have an effective role in the discipline policy (often the DH) and have them on speed dial.

It's horrible but I don't know what you do when the school has no control

Especially after you complain...