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To think people who want "safe routes to migration" into the UK are hopelessly naive

1000 replies

ForestGoblin · 14/08/2023 07:25

We could spend every penny of public money on bringing refugees to the UK in comfy and safe boats and planes. We could make it mandatory for every home to provide accommodation and food. We could ban healthcare for anyone except refugees.

And there would still be thousands and thousands of boat crossings every year and millions more people languishing in bad situations and trying to figure out how to get here or elsewhere in northern Europe.

It's a crap situation. Life is bad. I feel dreadful for them.

But "safe routes" is a load of glib nonsense that can't work.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
34
Moonmelodies · 17/08/2023 11:11

AdamRyan · 17/08/2023 10:57

That should actually tell you something about how desperate people are, to leave their home at risk of death.

Is France their home?

ChatBFP · 17/08/2023 11:12

@Middlelanehogger

But the truth is that it would lead to more acceptances. The reality is that politicians in lots of countries make the system as hard as possible to try to deter people. That is a reality.

Unfortunately, there are just so many places where vast numbers of people would qualify as persecuted under refugee conventions. We could revisit this in two years time under a Labour government and find that nothing has really changed.

Jumpingthruhoops · 17/08/2023 11:23

jgw1 · 17/08/2023 08:07

What resources are we lacking?

Are you joking?

Gee, I dunno... how about a healthcare system that's already buckling under pressure? Lack of decent housing? Transport networks already well over capacity? Roads gridlocked. We're a tiny island that's already WAY overpopulated with 68 million people. Of course we should help those genuinely in need but we need to fix these issues first. Can't believe that needs to be said out loud, if I'm honest.

Jamtartforme · 17/08/2023 11:24

This is the issue. If a dictator pops up in a country, and everyone flees, what happens? You end up with one country where a dictator rules unchallenged, and can destabilise countries around them and pose a threat to international peace, and one country which is incredibly crowded and increasingly disharmonious because it can no longer take care of its population. Where is the good in that situation?

CloudyMcCloud · 17/08/2023 11:25

ChatBFP · 17/08/2023 11:12

@Middlelanehogger

But the truth is that it would lead to more acceptances. The reality is that politicians in lots of countries make the system as hard as possible to try to deter people. That is a reality.

Unfortunately, there are just so many places where vast numbers of people would qualify as persecuted under refugee conventions. We could revisit this in two years time under a Labour government and find that nothing has really changed.

True. There’s a direct relationship between ease and numbers so if people think 50k by boat is too high making it faster and easier will increase that.

Middlelanehogger · 17/08/2023 12:00

@ChatBFP Unfortunately, there are just so many places where vast numbers of people would qualify as persecuted under refugee conventions.

I agree - I think the problem is with said refugee conventions. All these workarounds are a result of them

ChatBFP · 17/08/2023 12:06

Yes, I do agree - unfortunately, it is just the case that there are lots of countries in which people are persecuted or at risk of persecution, or could claim persecution. It's always going to be a bit of a numbers game for the host state and a lottery for those who are able to find the resources to try.

Jennygosoftly · 17/08/2023 12:19

AdamRyan · 17/08/2023 10:57

That should actually tell you something about how desperate people are, to leave their home at risk of death.

Desperate enough to threaten to throw children overboard if a French vessel tries to help them?
That's how the last drownings happened in the Channel because they refused help from a French vessel.
Do we really want these sort of people on our shores, people who are prepared to use children as human shields and make them "collateral damage"?

I think not.

Jamtartforme · 17/08/2023 12:23

That's how the last drownings happened in the Channel because they refused help from a French vessel.

Please tell me you are joking? Has this been established?

ChatBFP · 17/08/2023 12:24

And, I mean, if many people are needy and at risk of persecution, then how can we be sure that those who get to us are most deserving?

inamarina · 17/08/2023 12:25

AdamRyan · 17/08/2023 10:57

That should actually tell you something about how desperate people are, to leave their home at risk of death.

But what if they are traveling from France?
I think this is where a lot of the resentment stems from - most people would sympathize with someone leaving a war zone on a dinghy, but it’s different when someone comes from a safe country like France.
They might have an uncle in the UK, they might speak the language or be a surgeon, but that’s not the same as escaping immediate danger.
My own family were migrants because they had had enough of living under an oppressive regime.
They wanted to move to a particular country because they had friends there and spoke the language, but that country had stopped accepting new visa applications. So they moved to a different one, one that accepted new arrivals at the time.
Wouldn’t have been their choice at all originally and they didn’t speak the language at first, but that was the option available to them and they managed to settle quite well.

AdamRyan · 17/08/2023 12:27

Moonmelodies · 17/08/2023 11:11

Is France their home?

Honestly 🙄
I mean the country they are seeking asylum from.
Why you think France has any more responsibility to house them than the UK? Many are coming from countries that don't border France. Any many transit france/europe/Africa undetected.

AdamRyan · 17/08/2023 12:29

ChatBFP · 17/08/2023 11:12

@Middlelanehogger

But the truth is that it would lead to more acceptances. The reality is that politicians in lots of countries make the system as hard as possible to try to deter people. That is a reality.

Unfortunately, there are just so many places where vast numbers of people would qualify as persecuted under refugee conventions. We could revisit this in two years time under a Labour government and find that nothing has really changed.

You think an addition of an extra 0.05% of people will make difference to whether or not a system can cope?

CloudyMcCloud · 17/08/2023 12:32

Jennygosoftly · 17/08/2023 12:19

Desperate enough to threaten to throw children overboard if a French vessel tries to help them?
That's how the last drownings happened in the Channel because they refused help from a French vessel.
Do we really want these sort of people on our shores, people who are prepared to use children as human shields and make them "collateral damage"?

I think not.

That is horrendous.

Children were thrown overboard off the coast of Italy too. I don’t blame any country that has found a way to stop that to not change approach. If we do the same people will not want to go back to it.

Jennygosoftly · 17/08/2023 12:40

It's been going on for years and is so common it's now rarely reported.

That's one reason why the French don't like helping these boats. The other reason is that they don't want them in France and are happy to get rid of them.

This below happened under Tony Blair and Romania was a 'safe' country ffs!

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/asylumseekers-in-channel-ferry-standoff-threatened-to-throw-their-children-in-the-sea-5362161.html

Jennygosoftly · 17/08/2023 12:49

Jamtartforme · 17/08/2023 12:23

That's how the last drownings happened in the Channel because they refused help from a French vessel.

Please tell me you are joking? Has this been established?

It's common knowledge.

They are told by the traffickers not to accept help from a French vessel as they'll be taken back to France.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12124935/Fifty-migrants-boat-middle-English-Channel-refused-rescued-French-warship.html

Fifty migrants on floundering dinghy refused help from French warship

Fifty migrants packed into a floundering rubber dinghy in the Channel were picked up by a Border Force vessel today after refusing to be rescued by a French Navy warship.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12124935/Fifty-migrants-boat-middle-English-Channel-refused-rescued-French-warship.html

Moonmelodies · 17/08/2023 12:51

If they have already left their home, they have no need to risk death.

inamarina · 17/08/2023 12:53

AdamRyan · 17/08/2023 12:27

Honestly 🙄
I mean the country they are seeking asylum from.
Why you think France has any more responsibility to house them than the UK? Many are coming from countries that don't border France. Any many transit france/europe/Africa undetected.

You said in your previous comment: ‚That should actually tell you something about how desperate people are, to leave their home at risk of death.‘
But it’s France where they get on that boat, not their home.
That’s exactly what I meant in my comment, it sounds disingenuous and creates resentment.
Whether France has any more responsibility to house them than the UK is a separate issue.

inamarina · 17/08/2023 12:59

Jennygosoftly · 17/08/2023 12:40

It's been going on for years and is so common it's now rarely reported.

That's one reason why the French don't like helping these boats. The other reason is that they don't want them in France and are happy to get rid of them.

This below happened under Tony Blair and Romania was a 'safe' country ffs!

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/asylumseekers-in-channel-ferry-standoff-threatened-to-throw-their-children-in-the-sea-5362161.html

That’s absolutely crazy 😦

ChatBFP · 17/08/2023 13:10

@AdamRyan

Yup, I do. So the young bloke who comes here on the boat and waits years for asylum - if we process him really quickly, then that's him, plus many of his close relatives in under family reunification. All very quickly.

He is able to work quickly. He sends money back when he can to his cousins. They make the crossing, claiming the same types of persecution as he did. They qualify, so they bring their close relations in.

If claims are processed from France or from other embassies or foreign processing centres, then that's a further financial and physical barrier removed - more claims, more appeals.

Then there is the fact that the nicer and better we are at processing, the more our country is a draw for asylum seekers compared to other safe countries. People already don't want to stay in France - they'd want to stay even less if they got great accommodation and could work within a year.

Finally, there are some who come knowing they are extremely unlikely to get asylum. Many of those who destroy their documents, have criminal records and fail in their claims we are going to struggle to remove or send back anyway, so the best thing we can do is make the system really shit so they decide things might actually not be that bad at home and take voluntary repatriation. What would happen if every Moroccan economic migrant (I have worked for a couple in detention centres and prisons who have claimed they are of an alternative nationality) who destroys his documents and who Morocco refuses to take back can stay and work here?

I know people in the civil service who have acknowledged that making claims hard is just the only policy we can adopt if we don't want to reconsider our obligations.

You don't want to hear this. I would honestly like to hear from you what the ideal system would be like and why it wouldn't increase numbers beyond what we could cope with. I am listening.

AdamRyan · 17/08/2023 14:02

inamarina · 17/08/2023 12:53

You said in your previous comment: ‚That should actually tell you something about how desperate people are, to leave their home at risk of death.‘
But it’s France where they get on that boat, not their home.
That’s exactly what I meant in my comment, it sounds disingenuous and creates resentment.
Whether France has any more responsibility to house them than the UK is a separate issue.

Well not really.
There is nothing to say asylum seekers have to stop in the first safe country they come to, many do but not all.
Many have risked death at many stages of their trip. Remember the suffocated migrants in the truck?

So France to me seems completely irrelevant

inamarina · 17/08/2023 14:27

AdamRyan · 17/08/2023 14:02

Well not really.
There is nothing to say asylum seekers have to stop in the first safe country they come to, many do but not all.
Many have risked death at many stages of their trip. Remember the suffocated migrants in the truck?

So France to me seems completely irrelevant

It’s not irrelevant though if France is where they get on those boats.
Whether or not they should stay in the first safe country is a different issue.
They put their lives at risk getting on those dinghies, is taking that risk worth it when they’re already in a safe country?

CloudyMcCloud · 17/08/2023 14:27

Why you think France has any more responsibility to house them than the UK?

Which brings up another spurious post GE promise - that we can return people to France

Why would they say yes to that

Middlelanehogger · 17/08/2023 14:36

France doesn't have any more responsibility than we do to house them so I do agree with PP that we need a cross-Europe solution.

The question of "what do we do with someone who has 'lost' all their documents and whose most likely home country refuses to take them back" is a different and more pressing problem. I genuinely don't know how you solve this without either something like Rwanda or mass imprisonment.

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