To think it's embarrassing how English has one of the easiest grammar systems, and yet so many people don't know the basic rules...

[Skyeboat]

I'm a linguist, and the languages I studied have very complex grammar rules compared to English. So much so that native speakers have to memorise verb tables, moods, cases etc. at primary school level, and even those who didn't study to a high level know the basic rules.
English is one of the simplest languages, and yet the amount of native English speakers I see making really obvious mistakes is just embarrassing.
Is the problem that we just don't teach grammar and syntax in school?
For example, I saw a FB post today selling "Teddy's" (as opposed to teddies). That's actually the most common mistake I see - people, even businesses, not knowing how to use apostrophes and form plurals. I'd understand if it was a complicated rule that required memorisation with a lot of exceptions, but it's soo basic. It takes about 10 minutes to learn then you're all set.
I went to a pretty average state school, and I remember they did teach us these things, but we weren't rigorously tested on them or required to repeat them regularly. So I do believe the problem is with a lack of focus on basic English from a young age.
Am I being unreasonable or is this really embarrassing that we have such a poor grasp of our own mother tongue?

In answer to everyone trying to tell me that all that matters is that we are comprehensible and that having standards for use of English is snobbish or a "dick move", I'm just going to copy and paste a bit from this article by Simon Heffer that I read recently as I think it broadly sums up how I feel about this (i.e. that by driving this narrative we are actually handicapping disadvantaged children and that many people who spout this view are hypocritical, in that they insist on one standard for some and not for others).

For decades, teaching unions have encouraged inarticulacy by urging a policy of not correcting grammar, or words used wrongly. When anyone has sought to improve articulacy – to help the comparatively inarticulate not merely to speak better English but, as an important preparation for that, to be able to write it – they have often found themselves attacked by academics who believe this contrary to the natural development of our language. A decade ago, when I published two books on grammar and correct usage, I came under such attack.
It is ironic that some journals of the Left in Britain adopt the highest standards of written English, while many who read them patronisingly believe such standards unnecessary for the masses. My grammar books proved popular, not least because so many former state system pupils realised the handicaps they endured in the real world, in getting jobs and advancing their careers, because of their deficiencies in spoken and written English. It is a relief that the Leader of the Opposition now recognises their plight. I hope he understands and admits the causes. Presumably, he would have more success confronting his co-religionists in their ivory towers than successive Conservative ministers enjoyed.

I only learnt any grammar from teaching English to foreign students (at first we learnt together!)
In an interview to get on the course first I had to match names of tenses to examples - I hadn't a clue !!

@Skyeboat 100%. It's so detrimental to the success of disadvantaged children that people say these things don't matter. What they really mean is these things don't matter unless you are trying to enter a powerful profession or a highly ranked university, and then they matter an awful lot. There's no way poor grammar is tolerated at schools like Eton, or the super selective grammar schools, which are a gateway to powerful positions. The attitude that grammar etc doesn't matter (or is a fuddy-duddy obsession) is actually an insidious way of maintaining the status quo, where professions with power are reserved for those who are part of the club and others are excluded, unless they elbow their way in.

Where is your evidence that English is simple to learn? I think you will find that for NON native English Speakers it is classed as being a difficult language to learn?

Plus, if you are going to be so judgemental, perhaps you should be sure that you are also perfect.

I get annoyed when I read letters at work which are wrong, such as using who/whom incorrectly. They are professional letters and should be written correctly. However, outside of my professional life, so long as I can understand what has been written, it doesn't really matter whether someone has perfect grammar or not.

I wasn't taught grammar at school in English. My understanding of grammar, even basic concepts such as what a noun is, come from learning French. I think our English teachers just assumed we knew it.

Again:

Speakers of other languages make mistakes in their L1. This is not unique to English. I can give you common examples in Spanish, Catalan, and French if you like, and I'm sure speakers of other languages can chime in, too.

Please read my previous post in this thread.

The point is that people in power call their dialect 'standard' and 'correct'. To get ahead, one must play along.

But Black country 'we am' is grammatically correct in that dialect, even if it isn't in standard English. It has its own internally consistent rules.

I come from a fairly deprived area and was one of the first to attend university in my family. Something interesting that I noticed is that the families and parents I was surrounded by did care about this, even more so than teachers. Working class parents would correct their children's English, perhaps because they knew that it would serve us well in life to be able to articulate ourselves confidently and correctly.

Your lack of understanding doesn't make someone else pretentious.

Conjugate a verb just means how to use it in different forms eg I am, you are, she is. You could have just googled rather than insulted someone.

I believe English is actually seen as quite difficult for non English speakers?

Sorry that was to @Silvers11

@Skyeboat me too. I attended university in the 90s. My parents (both grammar school, grew up in relative poverty, left school at 16) both encouraged me to read, speak 'properly' and aspire to university. My dad said to me when I was a teenager 'if you can speak nicely on the phone, drive and write properly you'll never be out of work'.

Please Google 'is the English language a difficult language for Non native Speakers'

What was @Moonberri - I didn't say anything in relation to your post about not understanding, conjugating a verb, or insulting

Ok, to reiterate, I am not talking about how difficult English is for non-native speakers. I am talking about how English is spoken by native speakers.

It is absolutely is, but the mistakes non-native speakers make are nothing like the mistakes native speakers make. English language learners struggle with things like phrasal verbs, inconsistent pronunciation rules and our endless lists of exceptions. Native speakers struggle with things like punctuation and verb conjugation (e.g. "there's lots of them" not "there are lots of them"). Those who are native in the languages I studied don't make mistakes in conjugating verbs in English, because to do so in their own language is so much more complicated that English verb conjugations are a doddle in comparison.

I'm so sorry @Silvers11 I meant to direct that to @GoodChat who called someone pretentious for using the word conjugate because she doesn't know what it means.

The latest trend, in slagging off, anything English, continues. If you don't like the English language, you know the universal one, then don't entertain it.

@Moonberri - thank you - had me very confused there for a moment!🙂

Sorry 😬

It's a shame that my post came across as "slagging off anything English". I actually hate that trend, too. I hate it when people say our food is disgusting or our countryside is boring. I absolutely love England and English people - I'm thoroughly English and happy to be. I don't think that poor education when it comes to how to use our language is an intrinsic part of our culture - it was a temporary experiment which is having social repercussions but, from what people are saying, things have now improved in schools. So that's great.

It's not a singular word that makes her pretentious, moreso the whole thread.

But thank you for your explanation of the word conjugate! Every day's a school day!

'There's lots of them' is an idiom that has been around for decades. One could argue that as a phrase it has become a part of the language even as one would acknowledge that it is grammatically incorrect. Grammatical perfection is not essential for communication to be efficient and effective after all. I'd be willing to bet that similar idiomatic but incorrect constructions exist in pretty much all languages. They certainly do in Dutch.

Pedantry just isn't a good look.

Again, there is a big difference between the complex rules which we learn through exposure as native speakers, but which are difficult for foreigners to learn, and the very basic rules that foreigners learn at A1 level, but that native speakers consistently get wrong.
I was aware of this rule that you've mentioned, but to be honest most native English speakers just do it automatically.
Someone who has learned English for 1 year wouldn't write "Teddy's for sale". But they may say "the French red cup". Their mistake is understandable, but "Teddy's for sale" is an indictment on our education system.