To think it's embarrassing how English has one of the easiest grammar systems, and yet so many people don't know the basic rules...

[Skyeboat]

I'm a linguist, and the languages I studied have very complex grammar rules compared to English. So much so that native speakers have to memorise verb tables, moods, cases etc. at primary school level, and even those who didn't study to a high level know the basic rules.
English is one of the simplest languages, and yet the amount of native English speakers I see making really obvious mistakes is just embarrassing.
Is the problem that we just don't teach grammar and syntax in school?
For example, I saw a FB post today selling "Teddy's" (as opposed to teddies). That's actually the most common mistake I see - people, even businesses, not knowing how to use apostrophes and form plurals. I'd understand if it was a complicated rule that required memorisation with a lot of exceptions, but it's soo basic. It takes about 10 minutes to learn then you're all set.
I went to a pretty average state school, and I remember they did teach us these things, but we weren't rigorously tested on them or required to repeat them regularly. So I do believe the problem is with a lack of focus on basic English from a young age.
Am I being unreasonable or is this really embarrassing that we have such a poor grasp of our own mother tongue?

I'm a linguist too.
I totally disagree with you that English is easy. It is not.
I could give you plenty of examples but we'd be here all day so I'll just leave you to think about the number of words that contain the "ough" construction, yet are completely different.
Cough though thought through bought. How does bought rhyme with taught and sort when they're spelt differently? Why is the or in worm pronounced differently to the or in for? And where is the w in the word one? Why is there a w in the word two?
English is not,easy

😂

😂 Forgot to quote

80’s and 90’s educated here up to a level in English literature and language

barely touched actual grammar. Had to Google ALOT to help the kids.

The OP wasn't talking about dyslexic people, I believe she meant non dyslexic people who haven't learned the basic grammar rules.

It’s pretty clear though that plurals do not need apostrophes. There are quite a few who randomly capitalise the first letter of nouns. What do they think this is, German ??

@Seeline

I was much the same. Started school here (England) moved overseas when I was 9. Not much grammar taught in either, basically absorbed it through reading.

Learning French we needed to be taught English first!

Oh dear OP

🍿🍿🍿

I find this subject really interesting.

My dc have grown up speaking English and being schooled in Greek and French.

I watched them and their young school friends speak only French and Greek between each other but by aged 8 they were all pretty much switching to English - outside of school. It is the default language of fun I think among kids whose first language isn't English.

Meanwhile, I still struggle with my older brain. Not sure how relevant my input is, but kids who are exposed to other languages from an early age do tend have a better grammatical command of English due to how it is taught. My dc can identify the tenses etc due to rote learning but need me to explain colloquial phrases and other nuances of every day spoken English.

I couldn't have started learning a second language without learning the rules of my mother tongue. This is a fact.

I do see people/family I grew up with writing 'I could of' and misusing their, there and they're. My kids know not to do that and they have questioned it.

I started learning English age 11 and I agree that it is relatively easy compared with German or Italian, which I also speak fluently. My own mother tongue, Spanish, has a lot of grammar rules which children learn at school, from primary school all the way to 16. When I was growing up, we had Spanish lessons daily to do grammar, text analysis, syntax and all the rest. This was a separate subject to "literature". As others have mentioned, there's a whole generation in the UK who didn't have grammar lessons at all. This is clearly going to filter down for generations, as some parents will not feel confident about helping their own children with English school work.

As a linguist, you probably notice the errors more often than non-linguist. I get it! I am a linguist as well and I don't like them, but are they really important, or is it just my own harmless pet hate?

I guess it is comparable with someone who works as a fashion stylist. They probably go around noticing how badly most people dress.

Is the problem that we just don't teach grammar and syntax in school?

Throughout the 70s, 80s and early 90s it was unfashionable, even not allowed, to teach grammar etc as it was to teach tables, anything like 'rote learning' was sneered at by certain groups. The result is that there is at least one generation of teachers who were not taught these basics and it's going to take a long time to overcome this.

In relation to the simplicity of English, I'll just leave this here ...

Yep, fully agree. Same with Maths and why so many people really struggle. The teaching in say the 80s was really poor due to trendy methods, and so many of today's teachers, particularly at primary level, have passed on poor methods to their pupils, not correcting mistakes because they didn't notice them, just barely managing the basics themselves, etc.

innit

It's not embarrassing no. People have varying degrees of a ability and access to education.

As long as you understand what's being communicated, what's the problem?

Unless you're a English teacher of course

@AIBAnxious that is really not a particularly complex tense system. I'm not saying English is 'easy' to learn, but grammatically it's not that complicated in comparison to a number of other languages (e.g. Russian, Turkish, Polish etc)

"We was..." "I see" (For I saw) "Didn't use to" for "Used not to"
And for me a very irritating one, when "My husband and I" is used , but "My husband and me" is correct e.g. "This was a gift to my husband and I". Here people are using "I" where "Me" is correct.
If you ever listen to the late Queen, this was one of her phrases, but I doubt she used it incorrectly.
I wonder in the end if it's all self limiting and we surround ourselves with people who speak like us.

I 100 per cent agree with you OP, and I work with multiple nationalities, all of whom have a much better grasp of English spelling and grammar than my "native" colleagues. I find it depressing and embarrassing. Education has been dumbed down in the UK and ignorance is seen as something to laugh about.

I'm sorry, but that just highlights how simple English conjugation is compared to many other languages.

English: I play - you play - he/she/it plays - we play - you play - they play
Spanish: yo juego - tú juegas - él/ella juega - nosotros jugamos - vosotros jugáis - ellos juegan

...and that's just the present simple. Now multiply that by 18 (not just 16, as in your table). That's standard conjugation for most Latin-root languages.

How do you know that the person who made the sign is a native English speaker?

The only rule in learning English is that there are no rules. French, German, Italian, Russian are far easier to understand rules wise.

I absolutely love grammar and made a job out of it for about 8 years, but I’ll say to you what I always said to my students… getting the meaning across is always the most important thing. Yes Teddy’s is different in meaning to teddies, but does it really matter? Surely, an expert like yourself was able to work out what the poster was trying to say.

Quit being so mean and remember that some people, like my sister, have very very good reasons for not producing grammatically correct writing.

I had a Latin lecturer at uni who said teaching English students was incredibly difficult because we’re taught such little grammar at school.

All of us were postgraduate students with good degrees, so it’s not that we had done badly academically at school. But our knowledge of things like cases in English was so limited, we had nothing to draw on when learning another language.

I’m not sure it’s necessarily a bad thing in all cases though. The purpose of language is to convey meaning… I don’t know how important arbitrary rules are as long as the message can be understood by the recipient (especially if concentrating on rules means some voices aren’t heard, or if creativity is impacted).

@Dragonsbe me too. Most of my international colleagues don't consider themselves to be particularly good linguists as they 'only' speak their native language and English, plus usually one or two other languages. They can work with complete fluency in English and at least one other language and it's just normal. Us native English speakers really are the odd ones out when it comes to attitudes to language learning, both for English and foreign languages. I think post Brexit we are going to feel that deficiency more and more.

There are a lot of defensive replies on here.
I'm sure the OP is not having a go at people with dyslexia or other reading/writing difficulties.

My job requires me to communicate clearly in writing, so being able to have a good command of English grammar is not irrelevant. Sending poorly written emails reflects badly on the company I work for.

I agree that learning a foreign language really does help understand English grammar. I had never heard of the subjunctive until I took A level French.

At least we only have one word for “the”. In German you have three to start with – masculine, feminine and neutral, then you have to decide which case to use – nominative, accusative, dative, genitive. So you potentially have up to 6 words for “the” (some are used more than once)