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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think it's embarrassing how English has one of the easiest grammar systems, and yet so many people don't know the basic rules...

815 replies

Skyeboat · 09/08/2023 15:44

I'm a linguist, and the languages I studied have very complex grammar rules compared to English. So much so that native speakers have to memorise verb tables, moods, cases etc. at primary school level, and even those who didn't study to a high level know the basic rules.
English is one of the simplest languages, and yet the amount of native English speakers I see making really obvious mistakes is just embarrassing.
Is the problem that we just don't teach grammar and syntax in school?
For example, I saw a FB post today selling "Teddy's" (as opposed to teddies). That's actually the most common mistake I see - people, even businesses, not knowing how to use apostrophes and form plurals. I'd understand if it was a complicated rule that required memorisation with a lot of exceptions, but it's soo basic. It takes about 10 minutes to learn then you're all set.
I went to a pretty average state school, and I remember they did teach us these things, but we weren't rigorously tested on them or required to repeat them regularly. So I do believe the problem is with a lack of focus on basic English from a young age.
Am I being unreasonable or is this really embarrassing that we have such a poor grasp of our own mother tongue?

OP posts:
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6
macrowave · 10/08/2023 11:14

Elieenmorrigan · 10/08/2023 11:11

I wonder.

The information I have about which language is spoken most worldwide is

  1. Mandarin Chinese
  2. Spanish
  3. English
  4. Arabic
  5. Hindi

I have learned French and Spanish.
Once you have got past some of the 'odd' pronunciation in Spanish - silent 'j' and 'll' = 'y' IMO the verb construction and vocabulary are easier.

Those are based on native speaker numbers. English. When you factor in non-natives, English is the most spoken language.

Katypp · 10/08/2023 11:15

Itsnotrightbutitsok · 10/08/2023 11:08

Of course it’s elitist.

It’s common knowledge that there is a correlation between class/income and education and how proficient someone is at reading, writing and speaking.

It’s one thing to acknowledge and accept that but to look down your nose and find it embarrassing that their are people less fortunate than you is pretty disgusting and definitely elitist.

So what's the solution? A two-tier system where only 'well-educated' people are expected to know what the plural of cat is and the lower income folk are patted on the head for doing their best. I stand by my original statement that yours was a patronising post.

RojoCarlottaValdez · 10/08/2023 11:15

You aren't a linguist. You are embarrassing yourself.
Your original post is full of errors.

"I'd understand if it was a complicated rule "
WERE not was.

Don't you know your tenses? Do you know what subjunctive means?

"Amount of native English speakers".

It is number, not amount. Here's how to remember it

A number of grains of sand (a number is countable)
An large amount of sand

I can't be bothered to pick the rest of it apart.

.

macrowave · 10/08/2023 11:15

macrowave · 10/08/2023 11:14

Those are based on native speaker numbers. English. When you factor in non-natives, English is the most spoken language.

Ignore the rogue "English" please!

Mugaloaf · 10/08/2023 11:16

thecatsthecats · 09/08/2023 16:04

There are times when perfect grammar matters and times when it doesn't. The purpose of language is not to be "right", it's to enable communication and smooth interaction.

The very worst communicator I know was a stickler for grammar. He would write intense formations of words that were grammatically correct, but unintelligible and uninteresting. My rule is that if you're relying on correct grammar to make sense, go back, start again.

Worse, he would apply niche, stickler interpretations to other people's writing, and insist that the grammar meant that his reading was the only possible correct one. When even a blind Lithuanian bat would read the sentence correctly, ignoring the quirk of incorrect grammar.

I work with someone like this.

His writing style is very unnatural and boring/difficult to read.

ASGIRC · 10/08/2023 11:16

Elieenmorrigan · 10/08/2023 11:11

I wonder.

The information I have about which language is spoken most worldwide is

  1. Mandarin Chinese
  2. Spanish
  3. English
  4. Arabic
  5. Hindi

I have learned French and Spanish.
Once you have got past some of the 'odd' pronunciation in Spanish - silent 'j' and 'll' = 'y' IMO the verb construction and vocabulary are easier.

But again, we were talking about lingua franca.

You dont go somewhere and speak mandarin and expect other people to understand you. The same goes to Spanish. But with English there is that expectation, in most places.

I am Portuguese, so to me, Portuguese is easy. Same with Spanish, as it is about 80% the same as my own language.
But English? English was piss easy, even though it has no correlation to my own language.

Katypp · 10/08/2023 11:16

RojoCarlottaValdez · 10/08/2023 11:15

You aren't a linguist. You are embarrassing yourself.
Your original post is full of errors.

"I'd understand if it was a complicated rule "
WERE not was.

Don't you know your tenses? Do you know what subjunctive means?

"Amount of native English speakers".

It is number, not amount. Here's how to remember it

A number of grains of sand (a number is countable)
An large amount of sand

I can't be bothered to pick the rest of it apart.

.

I wouldn't bother. it's already been done dozens of times

JenniferBarkley · 10/08/2023 11:18

ifIwerenotanandroid · 10/08/2023 11:11

Something I've noticed recently is the number of people missing out words when saying something needs to be done, e.g. 'Something needs done about that.' Where did this come from? Is it an Americanism or UK regional? I keep seeing it, yet I don't remember ever seeing or hearing it before.

Regional.

Itsnotrightbutitsok · 10/08/2023 11:19

Katypp · 10/08/2023 11:15

So what's the solution? A two-tier system where only 'well-educated' people are expected to know what the plural of cat is and the lower income folk are patted on the head for doing their best. I stand by my original statement that yours was a patronising post.

class snob GIF

Perhaps just having some common decency will do.

If you know you are privileged, don’t look down on someone who hasn’t had the same opportunities and education as you have.

Housegouse · 10/08/2023 11:19

English is much simpler than the other languages I speak as English is not my mother tongue. It's bit shocking to see the sorts of mistakes the native speakers make here in UK.

RojoCarlottaValdez · 10/08/2023 11:19

Skyeboat · 09/08/2023 21:05

I'm also suspicious of educated, middle class people who for some reason don't want poor children to be taught basic correct English.
This is extremely basic, easy-to-teach stuff that can change people's life outcomes. Why don't you want to share?

OP - I've noticed exactly the same. It's quite deliberate.

Pickledpigeon · 10/08/2023 11:20

I have always been good at spelling, used to get 20/20 in spelling tests as a kid, I can remember difference between they’re, there, their etc and for some reason I have a wide vocabulary, despite not really reading, but for some reason grammar just doesn’t compute in my brain beyond what I have managed to memorise.

I am crap at learning languages too, that side of my brain just doesn’t seem to work properly and I lean towards other talents.
I’m also baffled why this topic comes up regular, you don’t get maths folk pontificating in a similar manner, why can’t some people just accept that we’re all different, instead of trying to shame someone for not having the same abilities and education as themselves.

Wintercomesoon · 10/08/2023 11:25

English is definitely not one of the easiest.

floribunda18 · 10/08/2023 11:26

I'm also suspicious of educated, middle class people who for some reason don't want poor children to be taught basic correct English.
This is extremely basic, easy-to-teach stuff that can change people's life outcomes. Why don't you want to share?

I'm more suspicious of right-wing upper middle class MPs who want children to be taught English in a dull grammatical rules-based way from the start rather than being taught to love language and reading and express themselves beautifully and creatively. And making comments along the line that studying creative subjects at university is waste of time. They just want good little rule obeying peasant workers, not people who might think, create things and challenge them.

KatherineSwynford1403 · 10/08/2023 11:26

Swansandcustard · 10/08/2023 10:57

Reading these is like being on our local FB page 😂😂😂🙈

@Swansandcustard Here is a selection from ours.

I was only 15 haha when i tuck time for granted! It's crap losing someone who was your entire life isn't it

our lives never been the same since the day we lost you! Only good thing is your back with granda all our love

The new generation are so bad, like if we spoke to people the way they do ww would of had a hiding and sent to bed

hey girl, I'm right at back near radiator just see bit a blonde hair

am watching 'Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory' and loving it, then 'Ghost' a bit of sexy Swayzee, then back to High School with 'Grease' well, that's my afternoon sorted, where's mi popcorn gone

Wintercomesoon · 10/08/2023 11:27

So your grammar mistake is not embarrassing but others is ?

KatherineSwynford1403 · 10/08/2023 11:28

Pickledpigeon · 10/08/2023 11:20

I have always been good at spelling, used to get 20/20 in spelling tests as a kid, I can remember difference between they’re, there, their etc and for some reason I have a wide vocabulary, despite not really reading, but for some reason grammar just doesn’t compute in my brain beyond what I have managed to memorise.

I am crap at learning languages too, that side of my brain just doesn’t seem to work properly and I lean towards other talents.
I’m also baffled why this topic comes up regular, you don’t get maths folk pontificating in a similar manner, why can’t some people just accept that we’re all different, instead of trying to shame someone for not having the same abilities and education as themselves.

Maths is an abstract concept. 2 + 2 is never going to equal 8 "because maths evolves".

ThanksItHasPockets · 10/08/2023 11:28

ASGIRC · 10/08/2023 11:04

By that token, Spanish and Portuguese would be linguas francas as well, and they arent.
Not to forget that both the Spanish and the Portuguese colonised far and wide way before the English decided to do so.
No one used Spanish or Portuguese as a common language everyone knows.
Why? Because they are hard languages, with difficult verbs.

Spanish could well have been the modern global lingua franca if the Spanish Empire at its peak had penetrated sub-Saharan Africa, or onto continental Asia beyond the islands of the Spanish East Indies, or if English had not become the de facto language of the USA, etc etc. Again, the reasons have relatively little to do with ease of learning. As I said earlier, if this were the most important criterion then the global lingua franca would be Esperanto.

I am interested to hear that Spanish is considered difficult to learn. This has not been my experience at all.

ifIwerenotanandroid · 10/08/2023 11:29

JenniferBarkley · 10/08/2023 11:18

Regional.

Which region? That's what I assumed the first time I saw it, but use of it seeems to be spreading. That, or there's a whole region of the UK which has only now gained access to the internet.😜

TheShellBeach · 10/08/2023 11:30

e.g. 'Something "needs done" about that.' Where did this come from?

That is a common Scottish idiom; I live in Scotland although I was brought up in England, and this is what people here say - and why not?

There are regional variations of language according to idiom all over the country: personally, I love hearing them.

TheShellBeach · 10/08/2023 11:32

There is one thing I should like to know: why do people say "I threw it out the window" or "he walked out the door"?

When did the "of" disappear? Even in magazines and newspaper articles, it is frequently omitted nowadays.

JenniferBarkley · 10/08/2023 11:34

ifIwerenotanandroid · 10/08/2023 11:29

Which region? That's what I assumed the first time I saw it, but use of it seeems to be spreading. That, or there's a whole region of the UK which has only now gained access to the internet.😜

I know it's common in NI and parts of Ireland, I don't know where in GB.

It's not used where I'm from (Dublin) but common in NI where I live now.

ifIwerenotanandroid · 10/08/2023 11:34

TheShellBeach · 10/08/2023 11:30

e.g. 'Something "needs done" about that.' Where did this come from?

That is a common Scottish idiom; I live in Scotland although I was brought up in England, and this is what people here say - and why not?

There are regional variations of language according to idiom all over the country: personally, I love hearing them.

I'm only bemused because I'd never seen it until recently & now I keep seeing it.

KatherineSwynford1403 · 10/08/2023 11:37

TheShellBeach · 10/08/2023 11:32

There is one thing I should like to know: why do people say "I threw it out the window" or "he walked out the door"?

When did the "of" disappear? Even in magazines and newspaper articles, it is frequently omitted nowadays.

The definite article is also often omitted from Facebook etc:

"Nice day sat on patio readin mi book might get lounger out soon"

I've also seen "We went a walk".

TakemedowntoPotatoCity · 10/08/2023 11:37

What I find fascinating is how native speakers of other languages remember their rules - is it just instinctive or learned? E.g. In French how do you know if an unknown noun is masculine or feminine? And when to use tu and vous without mixing them up (very difficult for an English speaker).