To think it's embarrassing how English has one of the easiest grammar systems, and yet so many people don't know the basic rules...

[Skyeboat]

I'm a linguist, and the languages I studied have very complex grammar rules compared to English. So much so that native speakers have to memorise verb tables, moods, cases etc. at primary school level, and even those who didn't study to a high level know the basic rules.
English is one of the simplest languages, and yet the amount of native English speakers I see making really obvious mistakes is just embarrassing.
Is the problem that we just don't teach grammar and syntax in school?
For example, I saw a FB post today selling "Teddy's" (as opposed to teddies). That's actually the most common mistake I see - people, even businesses, not knowing how to use apostrophes and form plurals. I'd understand if it was a complicated rule that required memorisation with a lot of exceptions, but it's soo basic. It takes about 10 minutes to learn then you're all set.
I went to a pretty average state school, and I remember they did teach us these things, but we weren't rigorously tested on them or required to repeat them regularly. So I do believe the problem is with a lack of focus on basic English from a young age.
Am I being unreasonable or is this really embarrassing that we have such a poor grasp of our own mother tongue?

This seems quite likely.

You can already see it in the field of aviation English. For obvious reasons, aviation communication has to follow strict, standardised rules. However, because some English phonemes are difficult for many non-natives, the pronunciation rules have been adapted. Tree is used instead of three, fife instead of five, and niner instead of nine.

It's quite an interesting field to learn about if you like that sort of thing!

If English is the lingua franca (and there are plenty who dispute this) it is because of the legacy of the British Empire and the distribution of English-speaking populations. The consequent dominance of Anglophone media is also an important factor. If ease of learning were the main criterion then Esperanto would have taken off.

As explained now by multiple posters, English is relatively easy to learn for the purpose of functional communication but difficult to master to fluency.

Honestly there are a few things that bug me when used in written English- the incorrect use of their/there, the wrong to/too, all of the usual suspects. I was taught correct grammar in school and have retained much of it, but I was an avid reader and I think that really helped to solidify it.
Remember that not every child receives support to read outside of school.

However, when speaking to someone, nothing annoys me- everyone has a regional dialect, including me, and often those come with language shortcuts and 'incorrect' phrasing. As long as I can understand what is being said, it isn't my business or problem to 'correct' that perfectly valid use of language.

I'm a linguist, and the languages I studied

That should be "and the languages I've studied"

.......complex grammar rules compared to English. So much so that......

There should be a comma after "English" and the "s" should be lower case, OP.

You cannot start a sentence with "So much that................."

"So I do believe the problem is............."

Oh dear, dear.

Never begin a sentence—or a clause—with also. Teach the elimination of but, so, and, because, at the beginning of a sentence. A sentence should not commence with the conjunctions and, for, or however....

English isn’t a one-time invention with strict, fixed rules of grammar, spelling and punctuation; it is a continuously evolving communication system. A lot of our so-called “rules,” as some people refer to them, are not rules at all, but accepted custom, out of date pedantry, or even so out of date that they are no longer considered appropriate, pedant or not. It’s its flexibility as a language that makes it superior to all those rule-bound languages 😉.

That said, really basic mistakes with apostrophes and words (eg been/being, there/their) do give the impression that the person making them is not academic, does not like reading or writing, went to an awful school, and/or maybe has quite severe dyslexia!

oh this post is fabulous!
OP posts (albeit in a smug and supercilious fashion) a not unreasonable observation ie that English speakers should have a basic grasp of English.
Pps split into two broad categories: 1. A million justifications around income, social class and 'chaotic homes' to prove how caring they are and 2. They are not interested in such trivia but go on to correct the OP's grammar (which of course they are not interested in)
What is so contraversial about people speaking and writing correctly? It is the million excuses and justifications that got us to this point. We don't do aspiration anymore, just victimhood.

You are a massive snob.

So grammar mistakes are embarrassing until they reach the level that you make them.

I think that anyone that gets "embarrassed" by other people's errors is actually just arrogant and getting a kick from it.

And I know I spelt controversial wrongly!

I think he’s an outlier…! But I also have a sneaking suspicion he just doesn’t care enough, his little mind is on far more interesting things!

With my other child who can spell I’ve been quite impressed by the teaching at school.

In my case I learnt to spell and use grammar by reading incessantly from a young age. In the ‘90s we didn’t learn grammar at school.

I live in Spain, where children are taught A LOT OF grammar and yet still people make the kind of mistakes in Spanish that you´re talking about people making in English (like a ver and haber for instance if Spanish is one of your languages).

It's hardly a big issue is it? The UK is one of the countries with 99.8% literacy. Save your ire for equatorial Africa, or Afghanistan which doesn't allow girls an education at all.

I agree with you, OP. Plurals, for example, aren't hard to get right - one dog, two dogs, one pony, two ponies - but the amount of people who balls this up by shoving in apostrophes is sad. I suppose they just weren't taught. Posts by what appear to be middle-aged people on FB often show real ignorance of grammar. Maybe these days, kids are taught more of the rules? I do find it embarrassing. I remember hearing an Icelandic politician interviewed on the radio and his English was perfect. I've learnt a lot from this thread though, so thank you! Also, I do think that reading is important for getting people used to seeing how grammar works.

I'm REALLY glad I wasn't taught English at school in the manner it is now, even though it meant I learned a lot of English grammar from French. Perhaps there was not enough emphasis on grammar then but there is far too much, too soon now. For little kids it should be about getting them to express themselves and not worrying about fronted adverbials.

Yes this. It's a complex language. There are lots of exceptions to the rules. We also have a lot of vocabulary in our language...very specific words for very specific meanings. In some ways having lots of set rules like in French makes it easier to master. So I don't agree that it's a simple language.

I agree though that English grammar is not taught properly. I feel I just learned through what sounds right and in my job as a lawyer have to be good with grammar so lots of practice in drafting. Also learning French made me think more about English grammar.

My main issues are:

Incorrect use of there/ their/ they're
Incorrect use of I instead of me (and vice versa)
Incorrect use of apostrophes as OP mentioned
Your instead of you're
Should of instead of should have (and similar)

What an elitist post.

Weren't taught, or people forget.

I have a a post graduate qualification and did a language to degree level and still find myself writing the wrong kind of their sometimes and not noticing until ten minutes later.

Grammar wasn't stressed when I was at school, it was all about creativity - that was the policy then. I'm always suspicious these things were intended to keep a visible gap between private and publicly educated people.

@ThanksItHasPockets Mastering anything is difficult. But the question is why are Master-Native-Speakers not able to grasp the basics of their own grammar. I think this is an important topic to discuss. Imagine you studied Italian in school, moved to Rome for work, and your native Italian co-workers would ask You how to spell their own words! Can you imagine that?!
Because this happened to me in London in early 2000s.. It shouldn't be like that. It actually disadvantages UK population in the face of global written communication.

@ditalini you hero

Haven't RTFT so apologies if I'm repeating what countless others have said.

I think a lot of these threads arise from a misunderstanding about formality on social media and the internet in general, which often has a generational aspect.

To some people, if they are writing a post on MN or FB or wherever, they are writing and so they automatically use correct grammar in standard English - just as if they were writing a formal letter at work.

To others, often those who have grown up online, communication online is informal and so they will write in the same way they would speak on the phone to a friend. And so on MN or FB they'll write "we was", even though they never would at work.

The first group reads posts by the second (and reads whole host of differing expressions because they're reading posts from people from all over the UK, all of whom have different regional usage, some of which will jar as the reader doesn't hear it day to day) and thinks "how terrible, no one can speak English correctly any more". Without realising that when they speak informally they also use some grammar or slang that isn't formal standard English, and will jar for someone else from a different region.

(And of course, there's the old chestnut that what's correct in one place isn't viewed as correct in others - in Ireland haitch, gotten, the way we use bring and take, are all correct formally but judged harshly on here where most posters seem to be from England.)

A lot of jobs don't require "global written communication".

People still make and build stuff you know, they aren't all sat on their arses in offices.

And soon grammar correction software will be so sophisticated it will get rid of any errors. It has already improved quite a lot during my working life.

I’m an author and book blogger who lives in Ireland and some of the best storytellers here would have you squirming in your seat so!! Who honestly cares! As you’ve seen, one person picks apart what another says, then another picks them apart. Life is waaay too short!! (Nearly wrote ‘to’ there- autocorrect preempted me and decided the second e wasn’t necessary)

@BMIwoes

I remember that Michael Rosen article and I agree with you.

It is a complex area and I understand the importance of local dialect but yes grammar is used as a class signifier and to maintain the status quo.

I understand the poster pointing out how some children have complex lives and grammar isn’t important.
But I’d argue that for those children it’s more important - to help level up.
No baby has correct English grammar inbuilt.
They are corrected as they experiment .
but ‘fronted adverbials? Good Grief