To think it's embarrassing how English has one of the easiest grammar systems, and yet so many people don't know the basic rules...

[Skyeboat]

I'm a linguist, and the languages I studied have very complex grammar rules compared to English. So much so that native speakers have to memorise verb tables, moods, cases etc. at primary school level, and even those who didn't study to a high level know the basic rules.
English is one of the simplest languages, and yet the amount of native English speakers I see making really obvious mistakes is just embarrassing.
Is the problem that we just don't teach grammar and syntax in school?
For example, I saw a FB post today selling "Teddy's" (as opposed to teddies). That's actually the most common mistake I see - people, even businesses, not knowing how to use apostrophes and form plurals. I'd understand if it was a complicated rule that required memorisation with a lot of exceptions, but it's soo basic. It takes about 10 minutes to learn then you're all set.
I went to a pretty average state school, and I remember they did teach us these things, but we weren't rigorously tested on them or required to repeat them regularly. So I do believe the problem is with a lack of focus on basic English from a young age.
Am I being unreasonable or is this really embarrassing that we have such a poor grasp of our own mother tongue?

That should read to which many English speakers lack access 😂

I mean: this thread is all I hoped for - and more.

Has anyone mentioned the gerund form yet?

If you read back your text, I believe you will agree that you overuse the word 'so'.

Just thought I'd point that out, seeing as that's what we're doing here . 🤷🏼‍♀️

This entire thread be like Robbie Coltrane in this:

True. I'm not English. The education system in my country is certainly much better than here. But the Internet is stuffed with resources and libraries remain free. People have to have the desire to learn and better themselves, though.

Oh dear op

This thread hadn't gone too well for you...

OP - You say some of these grammatical errors are embarrassing, but for who? I don’t think many individuals or businesses feel embarrassed at minor grammatical errors.

@Losttheplotsometimeago I agree. But people might be more inclined to learn and better themselves if we had a society that valued and prioritised education, which sadly we don't. Or at least, we have large pockets of the population that don't, primarily because they haven't seen the benefit over generations. That's not a criticism of those people, it is down to successive governments putting vested interests and status quo above the nation's wellbeing and prospects.

Couldn't agree more!
Whenever there is a thread about poor use of English there is an instant pile-on of nitpickers and those who claim it doesn't matter but it can do and it is sad that, as the article quoted by OP states, those who are most disadvantaged in society suffer the most from the repercussions of it

Whenever there is a thread about poor use of English there is an instant pile-on of nitpickers and those who claim it doesn't matter but it can do and it is sad that, as the article quoted by OP states, those who are most disadvantaged in society suffer the most from the repercussions of it

I agree.

What's the point of the thread though?

Adults who went to school years ago weren't taught grammar. A lot of them have very poor grammar. For a number of years now, children have been taught grammar. In my experience, their grammar is pretty good.

And still no one has addressed the literacy levels in other countries.

Unless you're coming up with solutions, this is just another 'why the fuck is the U.K. so shit' thread. It's boring

Huh? According to the poll the majority agree with me, and I've enjoyed the discussion.

I replied to a similar message on this thread with the following

"It's a shame that my post came across as "slagging off anything English". I actually hate that trend, too. I hate it when people say our food is disgusting or our countryside is boring. I absolutely love England and English people - I'm thoroughly English and happy to be. I don't think that poor education when it comes to how to use our language is an intrinsic part of our culture - it was a temporary experiment which is having social repercussions but, from what people are saying, things have now improved in schools. So that's great."

@Clymene positive action that people could take forward would be to support the rigorous teaching of grammar in schools instead of moaning that it's not necessary. Encourage the use of Grammarly in their workplaces. Try to promote and accept a culture of constructive, kindly meant feedback where its ok - not insulting - to set standards and hold people to them. The people who seem to protest the most that grammar/spelling etc are not important are the ones who are already advantaged. They should be helping people not pulling the ladder up.

@Skyeboat you did! And despite that, and being told (again) by several people that the curriculum changed at least ten years ago, you then went on to post:

My point is more that some of these issues are extremely basic and easy to remedy, and this sort of intervention can easily be introduced in primary school. Teaching children to be articulate and express themselves confidently and correctly is a good thing, and lots of these rules take just a few minutes to learn and a bit of repetition.

and

It's not about the finer details, but the absolute basics, the equivalents are just taught as standard in other countries.

And

I'm also suspicious of educated, middle class people who for some reason don't want poor children to be taught basic correct English.
This is extremely basic, easy-to-teach stuff that can change people's life outcomes. Why don't you want to share?

Which sounds less like a conversation where you're listening to other people and more like someone who has an Agenda which you're boringly banging on about despite being told things are now different.

Ps your grammar sucks.

I'm a writer in a business environment. I teach people how to improve their writing skills. But I don't ever shame them.

That's the difference.

@Clymene the difference between what and what? There's nothing shaming in setting a standard and helping people to reach it, if the intention and methods used are thoughtful. The children of today will not be in a position to bring their improved knowledge to bear in the workplace for quite some time. So maybe there's some work to do with adults as well, no?

As a linguist, you should learn that spelling, punctuation, grammar and syntax are separate things. Then you’ll know exactly what you are criticising. You complain about poor grammar and syntax then go on to illustrate this with an example of misused apostrophes. Apostrophes have got absolutely nothing to do with grammar.

My pet hate is people correcting other people’s spelling online with a snide comment such as, “It’s your, not you’re. Learn proper grammar.” I always want to reply, “Learn the difference between spelling errors and grammatical errors.”

^ and just in case you try to Google for a webpage where someone writes with confidence about punctuation and calls it ‘grammar’ - there will absolutely be one - they are also wrong. Same as the million people who all think they own a chester draw and are all wrong.

Apostrophes have got absolutely nothing to do with grammar.

Isn't lemon's a grammatical mistake if you are writing about 6 lemons?

And don't get me started on "could of"

We were having our Friday afternoon whinge and wine session and someone in my Department commented about being tired of hearing 'would of', 'could of' etc and the youngest member of our Department asked Why, is it wrong to say 'could of'? Luckily she was a cracking Maths teacher but a product of the trendy anti-grammar primary schools of the 80s and early 90s.

Rules such as how to form plurals (i.e. not with an apostrophe) is not something that varies from region to region

This isn't grammatically correct OP.

Rules are not. A rule is not.

A rule is not ... something...

You can't say rules are not...something.. because something is singular, not plural.

Lots of issues with your grammar here.

This really does not make much sense. If you are talking about spoken English, how do you know that someone is not saying "could've?" The "of" mistake is when someone renders the spoken contraction incorrectly with an "of" in written English.

They may also be eliding "could have" in speech. That's also a common feature of spoken English in many accents.

You're aware this is a logical fallacy known as "argumentum ad populum"?

A majority of respondents opting to agree with you in an informal binary poll isn't really indicative of much.

Oxford Royale acknowledges that English is amongst the world's most difficult languages to learn. They also provided multiple examples showing how challenging it can be too.

https://www.oxford-royale.com/articles/learning-english-hard/#:~:text=As%20we've%20seen%2C%20then,%2C%20Russian%2C%20Japanese%20and%20Mandarin.

The difficulty in learning a language depends upon a person's own ability to pick another language up. It's also much easier to learn a language that's similar to your own. For example, a French person won't have too much difficulty picking up Italian since they're both romance languages using many of the same words. Spanish and Portuguese have a lexicon similarity of 89% as well. For English speakers, Dutch and German are well suited.

What helps make English such a widespread global language is the reality a non-native speaker can immerse themselves in the English language via their local school, major films and even streaming channels such as Netflix. This does make a big difference.

Contrast that with other European languages. No contest.

These are factors that impact upon ability to learn. Ironically, the global presence of the English language has meant there's been little motivation for English language speakers to need to learn a foreign language. Victim of its own success, you might say.