Page 6 | I am so over pronouns.

TheDogAndDogAtCrutchley · 2023-08-08T00:09:01+00:00

I don’t care if I never hear another pronoun again. It’s not like they’re moving grammar along nicely now, is it?

fireflyloo · 08/08/2023 09:38

In my 40 odd years on this planet I've never been misgendered, so I'll take my chances.

Uptoyou34 · 08/08/2023 09:39

My brother uses pronouns and is part of the 'LGBTQ' community. Whilst on holiday he referred to me as a 'cis woman' and when I told him no I was just simply a woman he got mighty offended! We had a bit of a falling out of this tbh....

Moonberri · 08/08/2023 09:39

NeverMrsAgain · 08/08/2023 08:25

Maybe, just maybe, a culture of declaring pronouns does some people good and does you no harm at all

People who think it does no harm have not looked into how this is working out in the real world.

When Kristi Hannah, a Canadian female survivor of male sexual violence living in a women only addiction recovery Centre, complained to a civil rights legal Centre about a male who identified as a woman ( and who looked make, had stubble and openly spoke about their sexual attraction to women) being placed in her small bedroom with her, the legal Centre told her they would not support her as she misgendered that person, but that they would support the male person if they complained about Kristi for misgendering then. This is madness. You tell me how a female survivor of male sexual violence can express their fear of being housed with a male without calling that person he/him.
Or the women in the refuge corrected for misgendering when complaining about the men who identify as women living there who masturbate next to them and ask them for blow jobs.

And what about the degradation and humiliation of survivors of male violence and rape having to hear people talk about that person as she/her: that contemptuous disregard for the victim’s experience of male violence.

Or how about how it influences decisions when officials sit around to discuss the new prisoner Isla and where she should be housed?

Or female prisoners told they will be punished with loss of privileges if they don’t refer to the makes housed with them who they are intimidated by as she/her. How does that effect their confidence and ability to raise fears and concerns about that person’s presence and behaviour.

I could go on and on, about the ability of school girls to object to the presence of males on overnight trips or in changing rooms and showers, when everyone calls that person she/her. You get the idea.

She/her for males provides a huge barrier to women and girls being able to talk about their valid fears and concerns.

It’s naive beyond belief to pretend this is a harmless nicety we should all adhere to.

This. Well said.

AmazingSnakeHead · 08/08/2023 09:55

Sorry OP, I was too triggered by the pronouns in your title to read the post.

Screamingabdabz · 08/08/2023 10:20

AmazingSnakeHead · 08/08/2023 09:55

Sorry OP, I was too triggered by the pronouns in your title to read the post.

I get get triggered by pronouns too. When I see them on emails I realise I’m dealing with either a moron or corporate capture. They only ever get a basic response from me, if at all. If it’s someone selling something or wanting something I delete. I never go above and beyond for a pronoun dick.

givemushypeasachance · 08/08/2023 10:22

I'm 5'11'' and would charitably be called well-built - fairly rectangular rather than curvy. Have short hair I take clippers to because I hate the faff of it. Mostly wear mens clothes because I don't like dresses/skirts, and mens jeans and t-shirts and things are less restrictive and fit me better. I not uncommonly get people doing double-takes in toilets, or parents saying to their kids when I'm overtaking them on the pavement "let the man get past".

Transwomen are a hell of a lot more feminine than me!

AmazingSnakeHead · 08/08/2023 10:23

Screamingabdabz · 08/08/2023 10:20

I get get triggered by pronouns too. When I see them on emails I realise I’m dealing with either a moron or corporate capture. They only ever get a basic response from me, if at all. If it’s someone selling something or wanting something I delete. I never go above and beyond for a pronoun dick.

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To be fair many people in their places of employment don't have a choice.

TheKeatingFive · 08/08/2023 10:25

Transwomen are a hell of a lot more feminine than me!

They are not female however. Clothing and hair has no relevance to this fact.

Sueveneers · 08/08/2023 10:29

givemushypeasachance · 08/08/2023 10:22

I'm 5'11'' and would charitably be called well-built - fairly rectangular rather than curvy. Have short hair I take clippers to because I hate the faff of it. Mostly wear mens clothes because I don't like dresses/skirts, and mens jeans and t-shirts and things are less restrictive and fit me better. I not uncommonly get people doing double-takes in toilets, or parents saying to their kids when I'm overtaking them on the pavement "let the man get past".

Transwomen are a hell of a lot more feminine than me!

"Transwomen are a hell of a lot more feminine than me!"

Only beause they ascribe to a bunch of gender stereotypes. Dressing feminine will never make them an actual female though.

CurrentHun · 08/08/2023 10:31

OK maybe not in terms of their specific situation or workplace culture, but all employees should be aware that legally employers can’t force everyone to use pronouns.

I feel the same as PPs about companies that require pronouns. It’s hugely unprofessional for business owners to echo such a sexist, homophobic, authoritarian political set of beliefs via their company so it makes me wonder what other terrible decisions the management must be making. I would always look for an alternative company to deal with.

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 08/08/2023 10:33

‘Good luck constructing a normal sentence without using he, she, his, hers, they, their, we, I, our, my, mine, you, yours, us, it, or variations thereof. ‘

His, hers, their, our, mine and yours are not pronouns. They are adjectives.

Grammar : beta minus.

Brefugee · 08/08/2023 10:33

Uptoyou34 · 08/08/2023 09:39

My brother uses pronouns and is part of the 'LGBTQ' community. Whilst on holiday he referred to me as a 'cis woman' and when I told him no I was just simply a woman he got mighty offended! We had a bit of a falling out of this tbh....

which part of the community is he? Trans man or trans woman? make sure always to specify trans-wo/man if he makes sure to specify "cis" with you.

Anything else? roll your eyes and tell him to accept your truth that you aren't a subgroup of anything and it is your right to demand he drop the cis.

SomewhereWithSomeone · 08/08/2023 10:34

wait so you They/Them everyone ?

🙄 No, as I’m sure you realise, when you’re not pretending not to understand that is @brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Brefugee · 08/08/2023 10:35

Transwomen are a hell of a lot more feminine than me!

no - Transwomen indulge in a whole lot of stereotypical female-assigned behaviour than you.

TBH - that doesn't bother me. None of it does until it comes to dignity and safety. Then it can all get to fuck.

FrancescaContini · 08/08/2023 10:37

lilacsinbloom · 08/08/2023 01:54

My theory is this fad began when people realised there was nothing left to tattoo that signalled they were different and special - other than the whites of their eyeballs. The fact that actual grownups, universities, government departments, workplaces, etc etc worldwide are caving in and pandering to this nonsense astounds me. At some point, the often middle-aged adolescents pushing for this rubbish will age out of it, and the rest of us will still be left with the damage.

Agree. The only (unintended) outcome of this fad is that it can be a quick and useful way of sorting the wheat from the chaff in terms of who has more than a few brain cells.

DrManhattan · 08/08/2023 10:44

@lilacsinbloom 100% agree

Uptoyou34 · 08/08/2023 10:45

Brefugee · 08/08/2023 10:33

which part of the community is he? Trans man or trans woman? make sure always to specify trans-wo/man if he makes sure to specify "cis" with you.

Anything else? roll your eyes and tell him to accept your truth that you aren't a subgroup of anything and it is your right to demand he drop the cis.

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He isn't trans anything but he is gay...he has sadly become incredibly woke though and it's become his entire personality. I don't know why everything these days needs a label. It's beyond infuriating!

AuntieJune · 08/08/2023 10:52

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 08/08/2023 10:33

‘Good luck constructing a normal sentence without using he, she, his, hers, they, their, we, I, our, my, mine, you, yours, us, it, or variations thereof. ‘

His, hers, their, our, mine and yours are not pronouns. They are adjectives.

Grammar : beta minus.

@Allthegoodnamesarechosen

Actually his, hers, their, our, mine and yours are possessive pronouns

Which just goes to show we'd all be better off learning actual things like grammar than being snarky on mumsnet

GrumpyPanda · 08/08/2023 10:56

gogomoto · 08/08/2023 09:23

Having your pronoun or title on your email is useful if you have a name that's ambiguous. I don't subscribe to making it compulsory on emails or badges (my name is obviously female, I also look feminine so no need for me) but the option for those who want it doesn't hurt me dies it?

I've had sticky situations where I didn't know someone's gender from their name and caused an issue with logistics ... knowing someone's gender is useful including if they are choosing to be different eg you can place the non binary person a long distance from the emeritus professor who will put their foot in it!

I fail to see how not knowing somebody's sex would "cause an issue with logistics." Unless your organisation habitually books conference attendees into double rooms or takes male participants to strip clubs for entertainment.

NeverMrsAgain · 08/08/2023 11:03

GrumpyPanda · 08/08/2023 10:56

I fail to see how not knowing somebody's sex would "cause an issue with logistics." Unless your organisation habitually books conference attendees into double rooms or takes male participants to strip clubs for entertainment.

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Quite. And if the former there is surely no problem with saying, ‘Gerry, I am booking the shared rooms for the conference and can’t tell your sex from your name. Please let me know if you are male or female. Thanks’.

GrumpyPanda · 08/08/2023 11:04

Uptoyou34 · 08/08/2023 09:39

My brother uses pronouns and is part of the 'LGBTQ' community. Whilst on holiday he referred to me as a 'cis woman' and when I told him no I was just simply a woman he got mighty offended! We had a bit of a falling out of this tbh....

My stock response these days is I don't identify as pink fluffy ladybrain. Along with a little detail of what the notion of a ladybrain has implied for women in the past, such as being shut out of higher education. If the "cis" nonsense is coming from a man I'll also point out their male privilege.

Uptoyou34 · 08/08/2023 11:10

GrumpyPanda · 08/08/2023 11:04

My stock response these days is I don't identify as pink fluffy ladybrain. Along with a little detail of what the notion of a ladybrain has implied for women in the past, such as being shut out of higher education. If the "cis" nonsense is coming from a man I'll also point out their male privilege.

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Oh I do...but he argues that as he's a 'gay man' I have a lot more privileges as I'm a 'cis woman'. He's sadly become one of those people you can't even have a balanced argument with anymore as his voice is louder, so I just avoid him in general now. Sad really and even my parents feel the same...everything he will turn into a hard done by arguement

SomewhereWithSomeone · 08/08/2023 11:18

He isn't trans anything but he is gay...he has sadly become incredibly woke though and it's become his entire personality. I don't know why everything these days needs a label. It's beyond infuriating!

Annoying. 2 of my closest friends are gay, they both have no time for trans ideology, they see it as regressive and homophobic.

Whyohwhywyoming · 08/08/2023 11:22

VariationsonaTheme · 08/08/2023 02:18

It may do me no harm but if it leads to a culture of expecting people to declare their pronouns then it might cause harm to others. It’s not all about ‘me’.

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I don’t think this is true at all. I work in a very stereotypically “right on” field and I’ve never felt there is an expectation, only that you can share if you want to. For example at a recent sector event, our name badges had a space where you could write on your pronouns if you wanted to. I’d estimate only about a third of people did, nothing was said at all, it was just the option was there. People get all worked up imagining situations that in real life never actually happen.

ChiefWiggumsBoy · 08/08/2023 11:23

thegarmadons · 08/08/2023 02:10

Sounds like a you problem. Someone introducing with their pronouns or signing an email does you no harm. If it really is that annoying to you, you need to change your outlook on life. There's much better things to waste your energy on.

I don't use third person pronouns when referring to a person I am literally talking to, or emailing or whatever. I use second person pronouns, which in English, are gender neutral.

So what I'm actually being asked to do, is police my own thoughts and make sure when I'm referring to a person who is not in my presence that I do so in a way that they want me to.

Maybe that doesn't do any physical harm, but I'd argue it certainly does do mental harm to have to control and police my thoughts against what I objectively know about a person.