Page 4 | I am so over pronouns.

TheDogAndDogAtCrutchley · 2023-08-08T00:09:01+00:00

I don’t care if I never hear another pronoun again. It’s not like they’re moving grammar along nicely now, is it?

sashh · 08/08/2023 08:21

WeeWillyWinkie9 · 08/08/2023 07:23

Volunteering pronouns is inclusive of the transgender community, which is why it bothers people like OP.

It is the same as stating if you voted leave or remain. It is a political statement and no one needs to know.

It's a breach of the Yogyakarta Principles, not inclusive at all.

cocoloco117 · 08/08/2023 08:23

What I don’t understand about pronouns is that (she/her) etc. are third person pronouns, so you would never use them when writing a email or speaking to a person, you’d just say ‘you’. You only use third person when referring to them when they’re not there. So the person wouldn’t even know which pronoun you’re actually using about them. So what’s the point of stating them?

Naunet · 08/08/2023 08:25

HiHoHiHoltsOffToWorkWeGo · 08/08/2023 01:49

You used 6 pronouns in your opening title and post - I, I, I, it's, they're, it.

Good luck constructing a normal sentence without using he, she, his, hers, they, their, we, I, our, my, mine, you, yours, us, it, or variations thereof.

YABU.

🙄 yes that’s exactly what OP was talking about and not the boring, self obsessed twats who sign off their emails with she/her and they/them etc.

NeverMrsAgain · 08/08/2023 08:25

Maybe, just maybe, a culture of declaring pronouns does some people good and does you no harm at all

People who think it does no harm have not looked into how this is working out in the real world.

When Kristi Hannah, a Canadian female survivor of male sexual violence living in a women only addiction recovery Centre, complained to a civil rights legal Centre about a male who identified as a woman ( and who looked make, had stubble and openly spoke about their sexual attraction to women) being placed in her small bedroom with her, the legal Centre told her they would not support her as she misgendered that person, but that they would support the male person if they complained about Kristi for misgendering then. This is madness. You tell me how a female survivor of male sexual violence can express their fear of being housed with a male without calling that person he/him.
Or the women in the refuge corrected for misgendering when complaining about the men who identify as women living there who masturbate next to them and ask them for blow jobs.

And what about the degradation and humiliation of survivors of male violence and rape having to hear people talk about that person as she/her: that contemptuous disregard for the victim’s experience of male violence.

Or how about how it influences decisions when officials sit around to discuss the new prisoner Isla and where she should be housed?

Or female prisoners told they will be punished with loss of privileges if they don’t refer to the makes housed with them who they are intimidated by as she/her. How does that effect their confidence and ability to raise fears and concerns about that person’s presence and behaviour.

I could go on and on, about the ability of school girls to object to the presence of males on overnight trips or in changing rooms and showers, when everyone calls that person she/her. You get the idea.

She/her for males provides a huge barrier to women and girls being able to talk about their valid fears and concerns.

It’s naive beyond belief to pretend this is a harmless nicety we should all adhere to.

Naunet · 08/08/2023 08:27

SunRainStorm · 08/08/2023 04:26

Volunteering pronouns is inclusive of the transgender community, which is why it bothers people like OP.

I recently visited a free women's legal service in a professional capacity and their practice is to use their pronouns (she/her- it's an entirely female organisation) in all publications and on their website as a way to reassure women that when they seek legal advice they will be speaking with a woman.

Other people on this thread have also mentioned other reasons why pronouns can be useful, for example if you have a unisex name.

Unfortunate if it bothers you, but it benefits many and costs nothing. Try not to get your knickers in a twist about it.

How is it inclusive of the transgender community exactly? How does it help them?

readbooksdrinktea · 08/08/2023 08:28

FOJN · 08/08/2023 08:12

I recently visited a free women's legal service in a professional capacity and their practice is to use their pronouns (she/her- it's an entirely female organisation) in all publications and on their website as a way to reassure women that when they seek legal advice they will be speaking with a woman.

She/her pronouns do not mean you will speak to a woman. In fact they signal that the organisation has bought into gender ideology which increases the chance you will end up speaking to someone who is male but using she/her pronouns.

Pretending it's to reassure women when it doesn't mean women seeking legal advice will speak to a woman is gaslighting. It also signals that you are not welcome if don't believe humans can change sex. Asserting that it costs nothing is also gaslighting.

Completely agree.

DontYouThreatenMeWithADeadFish · 08/08/2023 08:29

I have noticed a number of people (in the UK) are quietly dropping their preferred pronouns from their professional email addresses/signatures which is interesting. Thankfully I have never worked for an organisation where it was a compulsory policy but a few folk here jumped on the bandwagon initially.

NeverMrsAgain · 08/08/2023 08:30

Theeyeballsinthesky · 08/08/2023 07:50

I recently visited a free women's legal service in a professional capacity and their practice is to use their pronouns (she/her- it's an entirely female organisation) in all publications and on their website as a way to reassure women that when they seek legal advice they will be speaking with a woman.

well that’s total bollocks to start with! I work with a TW who uses she/her & describes themself as a lesbian so no the use of she/her doesn’t mean you’ll get an actual woman. I mean ffs this is basic stuff - how do people not understand this?

Quite. What they are actually signaling is that they subscribe to gender ideology and the person who answers the phone may be male, and there may be males in their women only services and accommodation, and if you object to this you will be regarded as a bigot and told to leave.

AlisonDonut · 08/08/2023 08:30

I'm hoping to get to the end of this derangement before ever having to be forced to refer to a man as 'she/her'.

I've got this far...

readbooksdrinktea · 08/08/2023 08:30

jeaux90 · 08/08/2023 08:18

If someone asks at work I say "I am post pronouns"

I love the confusion on their face, like they've missed out on something.

I won't be gaslit.

Love this.

stickygotstuck · 08/08/2023 08:32

User63847484848 · 08/08/2023 08:08

It’s absurd. And immediately makes the person using them at the end of their email etc (when it’s voluntary) go down in my estimations and gets an eye roll. Especially if they’re over 21. The young uns I cut more slack.

That's exactly my reaction.

lilacsinbloom · 08/08/2023 08:33

I find "they/them" pronoun people the most insufferable.

squarecircled · 08/08/2023 08:36

CarpetSlipper · 08/08/2023 02:26

Yanbu. I just don’t care. I don’t care what pronouns anyone refers to me by and have no wish to be forced to state a preference.

I also don’t really care about anyone else’s pronouns but will call people by the ones they wish me to because I understand not everyone thinks the same as me.

You understand not everyone thinks the same as you??! Are you sure you should be on MN?! 🤣

Joking apart, I agree with you!

NeverMrsAgain · 08/08/2023 08:39

SunRainStorm · 08/08/2023 04:26

Volunteering pronouns is inclusive of the transgender community, which is why it bothers people like OP.

I recently visited a free women's legal service in a professional capacity and their practice is to use their pronouns (she/her- it's an entirely female organisation) in all publications and on their website as a way to reassure women that when they seek legal advice they will be speaking with a woman.

Other people on this thread have also mentioned other reasons why pronouns can be useful, for example if you have a unisex name.

Unfortunate if it bothers you, but it benefits many and costs nothing. Try not to get your knickers in a twist about it.

This post is a perfect illustrative case study of individuals who have signed up firmly to this ideology without understanding either the theory ( such as it is) behind it nor the operation if it in practice. It’s a perfect example right down to the (misguided) sneering contempt of those who have understood all of this.

Hooplahooping · 08/08/2023 08:42

VariationsonaTheme · 08/08/2023 02:18

It may do me no harm but if it leads to a culture of expecting people to declare their pronouns then it might cause harm to others. It’s not all about ‘me’.

Show quote history

But there isn’t a culture of expecting people to declare their pronouns. There is an increased awareness that some people use different ones + there are allied cis/ gender conforming people that chose to do so too to normalise it / make the minority of people who might need or want to share theirs feel safer. It feels a lot because it’s new and different. And because some media outlets chose to whip people up about it.

this is definitely a live and let live situation. It doesn’t need to bother you if you don’t let it. No one is going to force you to publicly declare anything. But maybe some people who are struggling with identity might feel a bit safer on the other side? As with many many many pieces social of social progress, it feels in your face to start with - it feels clunky and so easy to tar people with the ‘too much’ brush (women’s suffrage! Equal pay! Literally every single strike action!) And then it settles in to its new normal and we move forward.

deep breath. Let it go.

inamarina · 08/08/2023 08:43

Rudderneck · 08/08/2023 02:22

I keep thinking it's peaked, but then I see it in some new place, or some new, bizarre, version.

The most recent weirdness I encountered was a person who said she has no pronouns. And no,she didn't mean that she did not believe in the whole gender/queer theory/give your pronouns stuff. I'm still not entirely sure if the idea was she did not care which you use, if she wanted them avoided all together, or what. But I'm not cutting out pronouns altogether no matter what anyone says.

I‘ve seen ‚no pronouns‘ in someone‘s Instagram bio recently and googled the meaning of it.

I can across loads of ‚helpful‘ advice - how we can never know someone‘s pronouns, how people can change their pronouns regularly or choose to opt out (?), in which case we should use their name, or if we don’t know the name just describe the person (??).
Imagine describing someone every time you could just say he/ she.

JauntyJinty · 08/08/2023 08:44

DinnaeFashYersel · 08/08/2023 07:45

She/they

I know someone who uses she/they.

Im convinced she does this to deliberately provoke people to get it wrong.

I thought this meant they were happy to be referred to using female or non-gendered pronouns. Are you saying it means sometimes you should use female and other times non-gendered depending on the structure of the sentence?

I've seen "She/they" on line a couple of times but never in the wild, so very possible I got it wrong!

SkinnyMalinkyLankyLegs · 08/08/2023 08:46

HiHoHiHoltsOffToWorkWeGo · 08/08/2023 01:49

You used 6 pronouns in your opening title and post - I, I, I, it's, they're, it.

Good luck constructing a normal sentence without using he, she, his, hers, they, their, we, I, our, my, mine, you, yours, us, it, or variations thereof.

YABU.

Surely you can work out what the OP is talking about...?

Starlightstarbright2 · 08/08/2023 08:52

I watched glow up the other day ( busy doing other stuff too. The judges were commenting on they did …… I thought I had missed a team activity - they makes no sense to me .

Theeyeballsinthesky · 08/08/2023 08:53

all those live and let love posters who don’t see the big deal

does it not bother you that women don’t have access to single sex spaces anymore? That Muslim women who used to attend women only exercise sessions can no longer go because the sessions are now open to “anyone who identifies as a woman” or the rape survivors can no longer be guaranteed single sex women only support groups? Should they just “let it go”?

or should we just maybe think about women who are less privileged and do have serious problems to overcome before we start worrying about men’s hurt feelings?

Naunet · 08/08/2023 08:54

Hooplahooping · 08/08/2023 08:42

But there isn’t a culture of expecting people to declare their pronouns. There is an increased awareness that some people use different ones + there are allied cis/ gender conforming people that chose to do so too to normalise it / make the minority of people who might need or want to share theirs feel safer. It feels a lot because it’s new and different. And because some media outlets chose to whip people up about it.

this is definitely a live and let live situation. It doesn’t need to bother you if you don’t let it. No one is going to force you to publicly declare anything. But maybe some people who are struggling with identity might feel a bit safer on the other side? As with many many many pieces social of social progress, it feels in your face to start with - it feels clunky and so easy to tar people with the ‘too much’ brush (women’s suffrage! Equal pay! Literally every single strike action!) And then it settles in to its new normal and we move forward.

deep breath. Let it go.

Show quote history

Again, how?! Since when is a name not enough? We all managed this long just fine. How does having pronouns in an email signature actually help someone?

Alltheprettyseahorses · 08/08/2023 08:54

Hooplahooping · 08/08/2023 08:42

But there isn’t a culture of expecting people to declare their pronouns. There is an increased awareness that some people use different ones + there are allied cis/ gender conforming people that chose to do so too to normalise it / make the minority of people who might need or want to share theirs feel safer. It feels a lot because it’s new and different. And because some media outlets chose to whip people up about it.

this is definitely a live and let live situation. It doesn’t need to bother you if you don’t let it. No one is going to force you to publicly declare anything. But maybe some people who are struggling with identity might feel a bit safer on the other side? As with many many many pieces social of social progress, it feels in your face to start with - it feels clunky and so easy to tar people with the ‘too much’ brush (women’s suffrage! Equal pay! Literally every single strike action!) And then it settles in to its new normal and we move forward.

deep breath. Let it go.

Show quote history

How on earth does it make anyone safer? That is so ridiculous there aren't even words for it. In fact, it's the opposite. Stating pronouns is a power play, a demand for you to worry about using the wrong words, a threat of consequences if you get it wrong. Just say no when anyone comes out with that nonsense and tell them why. It's a silly fad that's got out of control in certain parts of society. Would you wear giant polka dot hats because some people say not doing so makes them unsafe? No you would not because you'd think you'd look stupid. Pronouns work the same way.

I'm glad I don't really deal with pronouners, it's very rare I mix with the niche middle classes who use them and the two times I've come across it as an advocate I've escalated it to complaint level and received apologies because it affected vulnerable service users.

CoffeeWithCheese · 08/08/2023 08:55

heartbunny · 08/08/2023 01:21

I feel like we've probably passed peak pronouns and are on the other side of the curve gently moving to whatever the next intense fad may be.

At my work it's to include a phonetic description of how to pronounce your name - even if it's something like "Dave" to normalise it for those with more difficult names.

I have so far resisted the temptation to put a full phonetic transcription of my name into my signature as a result because that's really not what they're after but I didn't sit through two years of phonetics for nothing!

DecayedStrumpet · 08/08/2023 08:56

this is definitely a live and let live situation. It doesn’t need to bother you if you don’t let it

But in stating those two short words (she/her) you're expressing that you believe there are different personalities and characters for men and women, and you've decided to tell me which you conform to.

Sorry, but sexist attitudes like that are always going to bother me no matter how progressively they're sold.

OverTheHillAndDownTotherSide · 08/08/2023 08:57

I had an assessment with a private consultant last week. Just me and him in the room. While checking name and DOB he asked my pronouns. I said I didn’t have any. He said I must. I said no, I didn’t. He could use what he likes. He said no, I must tell him. I said I was clearly female so go from there. He said I must tell him as he couldn’t assume. I said just use sex based pronouns and we’ll be fine.

He then said in the past this wasn’t an issue but with “all the changes recently” this was now something he had to do. I said as a practicing HR professional I could tell him that legally that absolutely wasn’t the case and that by the same token he couldn’t compel anyone to share pronouns if they don’t subscribe to gender ideology.