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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Email sent by colleagues addressed to 'Gents'

232 replies

funkymonkey55 · 07/08/2023 13:18

AIBU to be annoyed by a male colleague starting an email chain to other male colleagues where he addresses them as "Gents" and then he loops me in a few days later - when the actions around the original email topic (gathering information together) need to be picked up (by me of course!)?

It annoys me because I feel 1) I should have been cc'd in the first instance, 2) Isn't starting an email chain where you know females will have to be cc'd in / included with the phrase Gents a little rude?

I don't know if I am being a bit overly sensitive.

OP posts:
MrReflection · 07/08/2023 14:19

Dare I use the phrase - from a man's perspective...

It's wrong, on all levels, when used in a professional environment like this. It is a salutation that should have died out years ago.

A quick chat one to one is the order of the day. Don't make a big deal about it, but just remind the person it's not really appropriate anymore.

EarringsandLipstick · 07/08/2023 14:22

You're not wrong about 'gents' OP but that's not what I'd focus on:

when the actions around the original email topic (gathering information together) need to be picked up (by me of course!)?

I would take this on first - why is the discussion happen first then an action assigned to you?

I would do one of the following:

  • push back politely making it clear you aren't in a position to take this on.
  • speak to colleague asking why you weren't included initially & explaining its discourteous. As part of that conversation you can agree who is doing what task.

Don't do it just because he tells you to.

EarringsandLipstick · 07/08/2023 14:24

toastofthetown · 07/08/2023 14:11

My (female) department lead often starts emails to my all female team with ‘Ladies…’. Sometimes they end up being forwarded to other departments who aren’t women.

If you should have been coped in in the first instance then that’s something to deal with, but addressing an email sent to a group of men as ‘Gents’ isn’t an issue to me.

Your female head is way behind the times then. I've never seen 'ladies' used in my professional working life - and I'm 47.

Outdamnspot23 · 07/08/2023 14:26

The only way I'd ever think an equivalent term ok would be for organising a casual thing even with colleagues, e.g. "Ladies we said we all fancied trying to new Korean place at lunchtime - does 1pm work?" (I wouldn't actually use it at all but wouldn't be upset to see that or if someone did a similar "Gents" email and I was copied in later) .

Gents for something as self congratulatory as an award nomination is very old boys club, eurgh. Yes you should have been copied in from the start and yes the salutation is inappropriate in this circumstance. I would find a moment with the sender and ask him to copy you in first time on all these things in the future since he knows you need to be involved, and while we're here - what's "gents" all about? It sounds a bit old fashioned or like you're talking about the toilet rather than getting in touch with your colleagues about a work thing.

As for the poster who would "view someone differently" for raising this - oh well, you can't be loved by everyone all the time. I have consistently challenged sexist language and other such bullshit from the start of my career (not holding demos outside or anything, just pushing back against it as above), and I'd say for every friend I've maybe lost I bet I've gained three by doing so.

Original poster
funkymonkey55 · 07/08/2023 14:31

AnSolas · 07/08/2023 14:18

Aaaaa....

Mr Gents wants to get the public recognition for the work you do.
And you are now in a high risk work place where the new boss will let him.

Show quote history

I suspect you are right... it is early days so I am going to give benefit of the doubt but I do feel under the old boss he wouldn't have gone about this task in the way he is going about now...

@Outdamnspot23 - thanks for this, you are right, it is important to remind yourself it is impossible to please all the people all the time..

OP posts:
amymel2016 · 07/08/2023 14:31

EarringsandLipstick · 07/08/2023 14:19

Nether 'Dear Gents' or 'Dear Ladies' is appropriate professional communication.

Dear Colleagues / Team / All / Names.

I can't believe people use this anachronistic language still.

Show quote history

Believe it, it’s happening.

pinkyredrose · 07/08/2023 14:39

SpainToday · 07/08/2023 13:26

OP, you obviously have too much time on your hands

I disagree, everyday sexism needs to be challenged. It's insidious.

MrReflection · 07/08/2023 14:43

pinkyredrose · 07/08/2023 14:39

I disagree, everyday sexism needs to be challenged. It's insidious.

Show quote history

Agree it is insidious.

We all need to get out of the habit of going "oh, it's not a big deal" with these things.

Emptyandsad · 07/08/2023 14:43

WineIsMyMainVice · 07/08/2023 13:42

We have to keep calling this kind of language out. Every single time.

This

As a manager - and a male one at that - I would have appreciated being pulled up on any unconscious bias from me. If your guy objects to being corrected then that that would suggest that it's conscious and deliberate on his part

EBearhug · 07/08/2023 14:46

I would definitely raise it, and have done so in the past, sometimes with a sarky comment about women can do this job, too, and possibly about them sounding like they're addressing the toilets. It is hardly difficult to say, "Hi all," or something entirely inclusive. (I also dislike "Ladies" as a greeting, but at least that includes me.) When it's been external suppliers doing the "Gents" thing (which is when I don't include sarcasm,) I almost always get an apology that suggests they'll think twice again in future. They know they shouldn't have done it, and are a bit embarrassed to be caught out.

I also complained to a supplier who turned anapologised d to me every time he swore. I said he should either not swear at all, or apologise to everyone, or just carry on and not worry about it - I'd let him know if it upset me, but being treated differently because I'm a woman was annoying. (Especially when I probably swear more than most of my male colleagues.)

I might be the only woman in the department, but I still count. Just not as some sort of delicate flower who is easily offended by swearing.

Motherofjessie · 07/08/2023 14:47

Huh, if you take it to extremes nowadays better not to put anything at all, just Hi or Hey. In case you insult anyone identifying as anything else!

MollysBrolly · 07/08/2023 14:47

Better than being referred to as a girl or (team of 4 women in tjeir 50s) as the girls / the girls will do it.

if I ever get arrested it is because I hit my butch boss around the head with a brick for the continued referral to us adults as girls.
Team meeting in a few weeks and I cannot wait to tell bitch boss how degrading it is and they have to stop.

Outdamnspot23 · 07/08/2023 14:48

I just remembered I have been copied in to an email to "Hi chaps" and just replied all starting with "Hi girls".

Fizzology · 07/08/2023 14:48

Moveoverdarlin · 07/08/2023 13:56

This wouldn’t offend me in the slightest - in fact if I heard a female colleague complain about this I would think differently of her.

I'd think differently of her too - I'd think she was kick-arse, fabulous woman, if I hadn't noticed before.

CamelSilk · 07/08/2023 14:48

This would annoy me a lot.

RedToothBrush · 07/08/2023 14:50

Question:

How can he argue this isn't sexist when a) it was addressed only to blokes and b) you were deliberately left out of the initial email and then included as an after thought at a later date.

If you have a HR department, perhaps he'd like to justify how it's not sexist?

If you were included later on, it's clear that the message needed to come to you and there was a problem that wasn't resolved that then needed your attention and input which you were unable to provide because he felt it was an issue only for the male staff.

There's a team issue right there - there is a divide in the team and you aren't seen as equally important in solving the initial problem.

Neverseenbefore · 07/08/2023 14:50

Yep, that would annoy me and needs to be called out.

CasperGutman · 07/08/2023 14:51

funkymonkey55 · 07/08/2023 13:18

AIBU to be annoyed by a male colleague starting an email chain to other male colleagues where he addresses them as "Gents" and then he loops me in a few days later - when the actions around the original email topic (gathering information together) need to be picked up (by me of course!)?

It annoys me because I feel 1) I should have been cc'd in the first instance, 2) Isn't starting an email chain where you know females will have to be cc'd in / included with the phrase Gents a little rude?

I don't know if I am being a bit overly sensitive.

On point (1), YANBU because from what you say, it would have been good to copy you in from the outset.

On point (2), specifically regarding the mode of address used in the email, YABU. I expected this to be a general email to the whole team addressed "Gents", which you wouldn't be unreasonable to object to, but that doesn't seem to be what's happened here. It was sent to people who are all actually male. Assuming they all identify as male, use male pronouns etc. then I can't see an issue.

If I send an email to my colleagues Fred and George, knowing that they are both happy to be considered "gents", then that should be a perfectly fine form of address to use. Your objection to this seems to be based on a misunderstanding of what "cc" is for. Even if you'd been cc-ed in on the original email, that doesn't mean it should be addressed to you. It means that the sender has deemed it appropriate for you to see a copy of a message to others.

I'm willing to be that you wouldn't have noticed anything awry if you were copied in on an email which opened "Dear Fred and George". It isn't appropriate to address a message "Dear Fred, George and Funkymonkey" if it is only directed to Fred and George and just copied to you for info.

CasperGutman · 07/08/2023 14:52

For the avoidance of doubt, if the email had actually been intended for you as a primary recipient, then "Gents" would of course not be an appropriate form of address. But as I understand the story, you were not a recipient and nor was anyone else female.

coxesorangepippin · 07/08/2023 14:53

He's stupid too. He shouldn't have forwarded you the email with the evidence

OhComeOnFFS · 07/08/2023 14:56

How old are these people anyway? "Gents" just makes me think of toilets.

heartbunny · 07/08/2023 14:56

YANBU and you do not have too much time on your hands.
Definitely reply with "Ladies...." or "Hey girls!" 😊😊😊

RedToothBrush · 07/08/2023 14:57

CasperGutman · 07/08/2023 14:52

For the avoidance of doubt, if the email had actually been intended for you as a primary recipient, then "Gents" would of course not be an appropriate form of address. But as I understand the story, you were not a recipient and nor was anyone else female.

And therein lies the sexism.

She was deliberately excluded on an issue she needed to be included. He should know all parties who have a role here. If there is one women he will damn well know there is one women. If he's deliberately cut her out and then addressed it to blokes only it's making something of a point to be exclusionary.

It's deeply unprofessional on two levels: one the sexism and two the exclusion of relevant members of staff.

The language has left the OP feeling like he effectively has an issue with women. Especially given her late inclusion. Crucially her input isn't valued by him. She is an afterthought and that's been made very clear.

Bullying claims often have this pattern of deliberate exclusion and undermining.

floribunda18 · 07/08/2023 14:58

Dear all is much better if you know both sexes will be on the email. Gents and Ladies is very old fashioned anyway and sounds more like the bathroom facilities.

Magneta · 07/08/2023 14:59

I would focus on being left out in the first place. "Gents" is not the fight I'd pick here.