To consider myself working class?

[TheCatsKnickers]

I'm fully aware that it doesn't matter, but for the sake of argument - basically an ongoing debate with friend who insists I am middle class - which of us would be correct?

My background:
Dad probs upper working, good job but no higher education, bought our house and subsequent houses without mortgage. Mum from educated family but was SAHM. Grew up in MC area and schools, kept horses but more rough and tumble than 'posh'. Had a few years off too travel and have fun in late teens largely funded by parents, then went to uni late and studied fine art.
This, according to my friend cements me as MC.

The present day:
Followed my passion and became a painter. Didn't want to marry or have children so chose to rent. Preferred this as could move around and experience different places. Bit of a free spirit, but had to accept some financial insecurity for the pleasure! Am now in 40's and still similar, very content with long term DP but, I presume, not typical for many my age.
I have a decent 5 figure sum in savings although we received only a smallish inheritance due to both parents needing care in old age (they had also given their second property to an aunt and uncle who developed health issues in later life).
My income is somewhat fluid and would possibly terrify some, but I have intermittently earned very, very well and often receive high payments for my work (anywhere from £200 to £1k per commission or piece), but some months are quite the opposite.
So my lifestyle is not standard and has some financial insecurity, but I made my own choices.
Therefore, since I don't own a home or have a private pension I perceive my status to be 'working class', regardless of my background privileges and lifestyle. My friend argues not!

Which of us is correct?

Something to be proud kf

I think it is pretty low to make fun of my language and basic life experiences when I have not insulted or attacked anyone.

And the point of this thread is??? 🤔

Your background or anybody is all part of class OP! You are MC

“Income is somewhat fluid” … “parent’s second home” …“travel funded by parents”… “kept horses but somewhat rough and tumble” … all phrases said by no working class person ever. Your friend is 100% correct

Nowhere near working class!

I think it’s actually very typical of a certain kind of MC person to insist they are WC, which therefore marks them out as MC!

"I look down on him but I look up to him...."

You are muddling two definitions here. Almost everyone is the proletariat as in employed. All including upper mc are.
The upper class/ bourgeoisie own the means or relations of production and generally still to be upper class some say you need either of title or to own a large business / media .
In general speech nowadays people are talking about socioeconomic status. You can look it up on the gov or ons website.

Probably comes from a deep agitation at an absolute woeful lack of understanding of what it is to have grown up truly working class. Everything you described would have been simply unfathomable to me as a child. Your insistence with your friend that you are working class also shows a real detachment from reality, and I can understand why it frustrates people.

Hi OP.
This is probably the most endearingly bonkers thread I've seen on MN.

Class is now pretty impossible to define in the UK. When it was blue collar and white collar workers back in the 1950s it was easy. Now it is much less so.
However can I gently suggest that you read the room? 97% of people here clearly don't think are WC. However you regard yourself is irrelevant if 97% of the folk round you think otherwise.
So please feel free to continue to perceive yourself however you like - but be aware that nobody believes it.

I think your background does sound quite middle class OP, but I take issue with those saying being an artist is not a proper job - I know many artists who make a full time living from it. I also know full time artists from WC backgrounds, although it is much rarer than being from a middle/upper class background. The artists I know from WC backgrounds mostly had a different job before, and spent a long time putting in the hours working their day job as well as on their art until they were in a financial position to paint full time, so about as far from 'wafting around' as you can get.

I am a painter and from a WC background, although I was the first in my family to go to university. I do have a full time day job in retail but hope to be able to paint full time one day. People often come up with the anecdote that if you are WC and announce you want to have a career in the arts your whole family will be horrified and say its not a proper job and tell you to get back down the mine, but this is bullshit in my experience.

You are most definitely not working class

Here's some working class phrases for you.

Lived on beans on toast 4 days out of 7
Would have starved without free school lunches
Slept in slerping bags plus blankets as no central heating
Despite high iq's left education at 16 to earn a wage so we could eat

No horse no gap year no university

Ps we made our own way i rose to the top of my financial firm and my daughter went to cambridge ( fully state education no tutors) you have no idea OP of the struggles of real people. We didn't fanny around with a hobby for a job we had to actually earn to survive

There is an aggressive distain for people to claim to be working class when they clearly arent, demonstrated by some of the sour responses and comments here.

The Underclass is the tag given to that special section of society who doesnt work, makes it their career to be unemployed and soley state subsidised, have drink / drug addiction and have little positive to offer society, its very much a thing.

Thanks for posting.
It befuddles me, as most people on Mumsnet tend to identify as MC, yet many can't imagine pursuing art as a legitimate career ???
I have noticed a rather anti-art sentiment on here in the past, which is far more in keeping with WC values in my experience, and have tended to keep my mouth zipped!
Regardless what category my background is, my family (rightly or wrongly)encouraged an open mind about career choices, even though I have ended up a bit feral . My sibling went into healthcare and has lived a very 'sensible' life, so there's that.

I tend to the view that if you earn your income through intellectual labour rather physical labour then you are middle class even if what you're earning from it is not a lot.

I say that because even if your levels of income may not be that different from what the working class typically earn, you're likely quite different from most working class people in terms things like level of education, cultural interests, social networks, etc.

This makes sense, thank you.

Whilst I respect your point, I disagree that 'working class' strictly translates to poverty.
It is probably quite insulting to many, who are doing well in life, enjoying the arts and getting a good education. However, I am aware that the opportunities to access that are getting slimmer and slimmer nowadays.

Those may be working class phrases to you, absolutely, but not all WC people struggle.

And just to add - whilst I asked a question relating to my current perception of socio-economic class, in no way does this mean that I have never witnessed anyone struggle.
There is some very, un-nuanced, black and white thinking on here.

If you've seen people struggle I don't think you'd be this naive about your socio-economic status.

Also, art is a very valid career choice and a real job, but most people can't choose to pursue these careers because of the limited financial security.

You never struggled growing up, or had money worries. This safety net and bank of mum and dad meant that you could go on with your life taking risks because it wouldn't affect you the same way it does the person who started working at 16.

And now you come here to lecture us about being un-nuanced in our thinking. Were not stupid, we just seem to have more of an idea of what the real world is.

Witnessed and experienced are very different animals

Ive witnessed all kinds of things

I can see where you are coming from, but my OP did mention class perception as income related. It doesn't mean I am dim witted about my background or how people struggle in general. In the every day world I don't consider class, but did imagine my current situation to be categorised as wc/precariat. I certainly did not set out to offend, but this is mn, so I deserve it!

And if your daughter asked you whether she was middle class or working class, would you give such a blunt response?

Completely disagree.all working class people DO struggle. I personally rose above it choosing a career that would reward me financially and i now have at least one child in your position of being able to choose the arts because bank of mum and dad will bail her out. What you've described is alien to us.