"Therapy" is no better than a natter with a friend or a placebo.

[Market1]

I am starting this thread to see what people think of therapy. I am personally convinced it is at least 80% useless - I am not saying completely useless, as I am sure talking about a problem makes you feel better, although you can talk things through with your pet rabbit - I used to as a teen! There is also some value in learning some techniques such as CBT, but that can be learnt from a book, so again, not sure of the value of an actual therapist.

I've come to this conclusion through two main sources, children and holocaust survivors.

I have known thousands of children through teaching, and fostering, and many many of them have seen therapists. My main observation is that huge expectations are placed on therapy as some sort of magic bullet that is going to cure all problems, but the result is inevitably disappointment, as nothing changes. Parents, and children too are left wondering what magic was supposed to have happened, and why it didn't. One fostering social worker once mentioned to me that she thought it was a complete waste of time after the age of 8, and I think she was right. Between the ages of 5 and 8, you can possibly use therapy to teach children a bit about the emotions they are feeling, which can help them understand themselves, but beyond that there seems to be no benefit

My other source is coming from a family of holocaust survivors, who never had therapy, and survived by not talking about hte past - Many went on to have long, happy, successful lives, married and raised families, ( including me!) . They did not discuss the past, and I was told not to ask questions. They were not totally without problems. I was aware of the occasional nightmare, and several of them were binge eaters who became obese in old age. However, they lived with this problems quite happily, and there was no talk or expectation of "therapy" of any kind to address them

So I have started this thread to see what others think. Maybe I am wrong - I am open to being told that I am wrong in this. My experiences have not given me any confidence in arranging for therapy for any child, or suggesting it for any adult, but please tell me if it is really in fact a wonder drug and I have missed the point somehow!

I should say I have been sent for therapy twice myself - once after being in a road accident in which my closest school friend died, ( aged 16)it was awful, made me cry every time, I felt so much better when I was allowed to stop, and once sent by my employer after I was knifed ( quite gently!) by a student at school - I was taught some useful CBT, but in my opinion a book would have been more helpful than a difficult journey to speak to someone who was basically going very slowly through what I could have read for myself in half the time without the train journey.

so:

YABU - therapy is helpful - and please explain how!
YANBU - therapy is a waste of time /a money maker/ sending someone for therapy or providing it is just a way of letting someone feel they are doing something useful, when they are not

Would you say to someone with a physical illness to get out and sing and dance and all will be fine cause theyl die soon anyway?

The example of Holocaust survivors is interesting but that's also a different generation. People were generally more resilient and just got on with it. I know someone who survived a Serbian concentration camp and they get on with life absolutely fine but there are triggers that can massively affect them.

I actually think a part of the reason that people recovered from the holocaust is a lot to do with the very strong identity and community that was formed among survivors. People heal in community and I actually think that the Jewish people particularly created incredibly strong communities as a result of their albeit as negative an experience as any ever in history. For example I don’t believe the Russians have recovered as well from their own death camp traumas and that is still being experienced as trauma now and is playing out in lots of ways in Ukraine.

@CattyCattle I responded to you because you said 'I too have had those penny dropping moments' which is a phrase I had used, so presumed that something I had said had struck a chord with you. Guess that's how it started. We both have had different experiences from therapy and taken different things away from it. I certainly had no intention of being aggressive. Apologies if it came across that way.

I'm in therapy for life-long emotional neglect and narcissistic abuse. I was "coping" all my life, on the outside I probably seem like a very capable person. On the inside I felt like I was the person who mattered least in the world.

Due to my "mother" finally saying something so horrible to me that I went to therapy, I have finally realised that it wasn't me. I almost subconsciously felt I was wrong, there was some reason I couldn't get things right. Now I know that no matter what I do, in her eyes it isn't enough. She is a very damaged person but that doesn't give her the right to abuse me. She used to tell me she loved me but her behaviour said otherwise, but I believed her words. Now I know that although I can have sympathy for the damage that was done to her, I do not have to accept her behaviour (or abusive behaviour from anyone). I asked her, gently, to get help but she refused and blamed me. I haven't seen her in 2 years and am ok with that. I've had flying monkeys try to get me to "forgive", i.e. ignore her behaviour which she has not apologised for and will not change; she has lied to everyone about what happened. My eyes are now fully open and I am putting me first.

Without therapy I probably still would be being abused by her and the effects on my family would continue. I am devastated that I allowed her abuse for so long, that is the next stage in my therapy, to help me come to terms with that.

i wonder if there’s something about being Jewish that helps in situations that seem almost unbearably hard to recover from? Being part of a community? Having centuries-old systems of support that could survive even the holocaust l? Not all Jewish people are observant and branches of Judaism operate very differently, of course. But perhaps survivors could draw on a collective wisdom, a sense of being part of something larger.

By contrast, my elderly parent remembers growing up in Australia when survivors of the Japanese POW camps returned home. There was a lot of alcoholism and domestic violence. Nobody talked about what had happened to them while they underwent the years of abuse and questions were discouraged. Clearly these men needed some kind of support before and during reentry.

YABU

I've had a lot of different kinds of therapy: ACT, CBT, DBT, psychoanalysis etc. Without it I'd be dead, or perpetuating the generational cycle of abuse that has been present in my family for eons.

Some people, like myself, process their emotions as they're talking, and I really don't want to be burdening my friends with much of the trauma I've experienced. It's too personal and too many negative emotions, such as shame and guilt, were attached to those events. Being in a safe, non-judgemental talking space was the only way I was able to recognise how and why my childhood experiences dictated my thought patterns, unhealthy boundaries, and emotional responses. Locking them away would have meant guaranteed continued suffering. Once that was done I was able to create a new story about myself, one where I was no longer a passive victim, but a survivor with agency, healthy boundaries, and positive coping mechanisms. It's hard work, and those old habits do rear their ugly heads at times, but I've got the self-knowledge and tools to recognise it and distance myself from them in order to create space for the new coping skills to be implemented.

So, I had trauma therapy for PTSD after a rape, and found it very helpful.

I started therapy about a year after the rape, after the court case, when I still wasn’t feeling any better. I cried on the way to my first appointment, and all the way through my first assessments, because I was so upset by talking about it. I was having trouble leaving the house due to intrusive PTSD symptoms and fear of being raped again.

12 weeks later and my symptoms were gone, I was off antidepressants and back at college, and I was able to visit the site where I was raped. I would never have believed that would have been possible 3 months earlier.

I didn’t go to feel supported or loved - I already felt supported and loved by my family, and that wasn’t enough to treat the PTSD.

CBT has a larger evidence base because the style of therapy lends itself to being studied in that way. If you're trying to study the effectiveness of a therapy, you have to try to standardise everything as much as possible to avoid bringing extra variables into the study that would influence the results. You also have to work out how to measure the outcome in a standardised way so you can measure how much it has "worked". With a therapy like CBT that is very structured, this is much easier to do. With something where people are exploring their past, working out meaning, how things have affected them, working out how to build a better life going forward - it's much harder to fit into a standard model for scientific study.

CBT is also relatively cheap to deliver. So they rolled it out everywhere as a fix for everything. Which it is not. And as it is applied to more situations, it's becoming more apparent what it's limitations are, hence apparently being less effective.

No way - CBT has been literally life changing for me. It wasn't about needing a stranger to listen to me, it was the insight that stranger was then able to offer and how he changed my thought patterns. Empowered me

The thing is, all of these but 50s years ago folk just got on with it so we all should (you might want to take a look at the suicide rate for males) or my friends aunties granny or the one counsellor up this thread who wasnt nice to her family xnone of that helps.

Its whether it works for them.

You might think it's pointless m, and what a blessed position to be in, but you dont need to go.

I think it’s situation dependent.

If you’re going through a brief, tough life event and need support and guidance then a friend can be a helpful ear.

If you have chronic trauma/major trauma/a whole host of things going on in your life, sometimes it isn’t fair to burden your friends with those issues and they don’t necessarily come equipped with the tools to help you through them. They can support you, sure, but I don’t know that they can always be the ones to provide the way out.

Examples: (n=1)
At uni I had a friends with benefits situation that turned out terribly, destroying some of my other major friendships. I needed a lot of hand holding from other friends, who were able to provide this.

I also have a mother with MS who was diagnosed when I was 1. She has a lot of unpleasant personality traits and my childhood wasn’t great as a result. Our relationship is now fine(ish), but not that of a typical mother and daughter. My friends can’t relate, as they haven’t been through this, and other than saying “that sounds hard” they can’t help me work out how I feel about this.

She's picked me out of the thread when I've discussed my own childhood and how therapy didn't help me to comment how well it helped her. Other posters also spoke about penny dropping moments etc but not personally tagged me.

I made a generic post again explaining my position and then received an agressive response about how I've accused her of blaming her parents. I did not. There was no need to tag me and make out like I did.

but the binge eating wasn't particularly troubling them. I am a binge eater too, and I put that down to being raised by binge eaters. It doesn't trouble me much either - definitely no "unresolved pain"

I don’t think you should be living in the past in decent therapy and if it is about the past it should be about how the past is impacting your ongoing thoughts/behaviour.

I have ongoing issues with my family estrangement in that they are trying to make out that I am the problem (scapegoating) and it blows up from time to time and the gaslighting they engage in because of their own choices in the situation but the therapy I have is focussed on dealing with the here and now issues arising as a consequence of the history. The betrayal from the sexual abuse I experienced in my family is dealt with from my perspective but the secondary impact of my family being unwilling to address my brother’s not even long past history as a predator is still ongoing.

@Market1 where is your evidence for the 'happy lives ' and mental health statistics of ex holocaust survivors? A crass example.

I think therapy is most useful when you've reached a point where life has become unmanageable - when all other attempts to heal have failed. That's certainly the case for me, and for nearly all of my clients when I was working as a therapist. Defences are broken down enough for there to be a chance of change.

But those who go into therapy to "work on themselves"? I don't think that's as successful. Contrarily, very often this kind of choice is actually motivated by an unconscious desire to avoid change. ("Oh, I tried therapy; I put in the work. It didn't help at all! Ah well.")

One thing they don't tell you about successful therapy: things typically get a lot worse before they get better. That's part of the process. A lot of clients won't stay the course when this happens. But if they do, then something can shift, and that can feel nothing short of miraculous. But you have to really put in the work, not pay lip-service to it; and my experience of those who really have put in the work is that they seldom, if ever, say anything about 'putting in the work'. They just do it.

I've had therapy for emotional abuse that started at 3 and went on until I cut contact at 37.

I've found it largely useless.

I have a great understanding of how and why the abuse happened, I know it wasn't fault and that there is nothing wrong with me per se. Ive forgiven my abuser. Logically and intellectually, I get it all. Mentally and emotionally, it's made no difference.

Talking to people who have been through similar and understanding that my feelings and reactions are commonplace has helped me to make peace with them, in the main.

I function.

But am I the same as someone who hasn't been through abuse? No. I'm just able to manage myself and my feelings in a way that means it doesn't impact on other people.

In my experience its down to 1. the person having therapy and 2. the therapist being the right person to give that therapy. My mum adores talking therapies - she really benefits from talking about herself and her feelings for an hour at a time and it makes her feel a lot better. She never does any 'homework' that may be set or reads any of the suggested literature. She can afford to pay for it so who am I to tell her its a self indulgent luxury. She needs the security of someone who isn't family telling her she is justified in feeling how she does.

My partner had therapy to help him through a breakdown but it didn't do a damn thing.

I had therapy in my early 20s and it didn't help at all - thinking back I was a spoiled over privileged brat who needed a kick up the backside rather than therapy . Had another go during my late 30s but found anti depressants worked better.
Was advised to have grief counselling following death of partner end of last year - no point. I know what I'm feeling and why and don't need to pay someone else to tell me how to work through it,.

As I said, I was raised by them, and was close to another dozen or so "aunties" "uncles" and grandparents ( and 2 great grandparents!) - not necessarily related, as my family lost most blood relatives, but the survivors stuck together as a family for the rest of their lives. I am talking about my own experiences of very close relationships with about 20 or so holocaust survivors, over 30-40 years

Therapy draws you back into your pain and you keep discussing it. you wont ever change what happened

I think this can be true but it doesn't have to be. A lot depends on mindset and where you want to get to. Some people seem to not really want to let go of their pain because there is a fear of the idea that it will mean the thing(s) they experienced didn't really matter. I don't know if I'm explaining very well but I can remember after bereavements thinking i don't want to feel better because the grief is all I have left of that person. I think some people are particularly resistant to leaving that stage and therapy can become an exercise in going over it all and embedding it without moving on positively.

In the six week therapy course I had I was very conscious and open about the fact that I wanted things to change and be better. The therapist remarked that often people say that but still won't let go and open up, and sometimes don't realise they are doing it.

For me it turned out the massive stumbling block I had without properly realising is that I've always been a complete disappointment to my parents, for no obvious reason. My adult life had been structured around trying (and failing) to win their love and approval. I was finally able to accept that won't change, that it wasn't my fault, that I'm a nice person with lots of blessings and I can just allow myself to enjoy them. So the sessions did take me through the old pain, but as a path to a newer happier life. Sorry sounds very trite!

I was also personally involved in long term epigenetic studies on holocaust survivors and their decedents

Recent tried (and gave up) therapy for about the 3rd time in my adult life.

I have a lot of issues with anxiety and DH is convinced that therapy will help (he has had therapy in the past). I really tried to go with an open mind but I just found my therapist annoying. I felt that she was jumping on the wrong things and making a lot of incorrect assumptions such as that I was in a controlling relationship because DH has encouraged me to try therapy.

Reflecting on it I’m not sure I’m engaging with it properly but I’m not really sure how to fix that.

DH is a fab listener and already knows all the back story 🤷🏻‍♀️

I said that when my boyfriend died

Years later I realised I wished I had therapy at the time it happened. And I am still unpicking the consequences.

I disagree that it keeps you stuck, good therapy moves you forward

There are so many interesting responses here, I am jumping back and forth between mumsnet and other tasks I am supposed to be completing! so can't give these responses the attention they deserve - I will be saving this thread and rereading it very carefully though. I expect that will take me several days of times when I can actually concentrate

I refuse to let family problems and estrangement get to me, thats the way to go. Nobody is going to drag me down because of their actions. Need to be strong.

Dont waste time talking about them all, sod em and get on with your own life, they arent worried. None of it will matter when we arent here anymore anyway.

My partner and I could spend all day long talking about who done this in the family, why are they like that etc, but we made an agreement our happiness was important and it was a reflection of them what has happened/hasnt happened.

Why should we ruin our day discussing them?
What is important to us is our day to day health and happiness. Being together, enjoying life, keeping well.

If you got bad news tomorrow that you didnt have long to live or had a serious illness etc then none of the family stuff would matter, what would be important would be you. all the other crap would disappear. A wise woman once said forget all this shit and she lived happily ever after is something i find true.

This helps me/us dont know if it would help you. Yes we had estrangement and the other things you mention. Not going to let other people bog us down though.