To think that pregnancy care SHOULD be focused on helping women to have healthy babies?

[CatusFlatus]

This article in a medical journal advocates the taking of testosterone by trans-identified females during pregnancy, despite the proven and potential risks to the unborn child.

The claim that ‘gendered’ pregnancy care is too focused on helping women to have healthy babies and that it is acceptable for transmen to continue taking testosterone during pregnancy, despite the proven and potential risks to the foetus because of, for example, concerns the transman has about being mis-gendered or their desire to be regarded as a pregnant man.

They claim that the desire for ‘normal foetal outcomes’ is problematic because it is born of a wish to protect babies “From becoming anything other than ‘normal’” and reflects the “Historical and ongoing social practices for creating ‘ideal’ and normative bodies.”

This is insane.

Which why pretending to be kind to transmen who are pregnant would be an absolute goldmine for companies, as it would hoy the Ethics of carrying out such experiments on foetuses straight out of the nearest window. 'Oh, but we're monitoring outcomes meticulously'. Well, you wouldn't, wouldn't you - you don't know when you'll be able to carry out human experimentation again, do you?

That's a good thought. And, if a transman has a baby that ends up with disabilities due to hormone treatment, the baby and the citizens get to pay for that choice. Of course, it's the same if a woman takes illegal drugs or drinks too. The innocent pay the price.

Ffs. I really think pregnancy, after an initial period, is all in. That is, there should be everywhere a right to termination, no questions asked, for a certain time limit - that’s a whole other debate but let’s just accept that for the sake of argument - and after that if you’ve decided to go ahead with the pregnancy, it’s all in, with the foetus fully protected (barring conditions which are life threatening for the mother within the term of the pregnancy and immediately post partum). How can you be a parent if you don’t put the baby first? Have these people no idea what is entailed once it’s born? Your life is not your own, and that’s just the way it is for a while. Babies need nurturing.

All the NHS says is
“Testosterone and pregnancyTaking testosterone in pregnancy is not recommended.
Do not stop taking testosterone before talking with the doctor who is prescribing it for you.
If you stop taking testosterone you’ll probably start to have periods. You may also notice changes in your body shape around your hips, chest and thighs.”
https://www.nhs.uk/pregnancy/having-a-baby-if-you-are-lgbt-plus/testosterone-and-pregnancy/

Nothing about “causing a range of birth defects” or that “you should stop it immediately you become pregnant” as you have stated.

In fact it says “do not stop taking testosterone” until you’ve talked to the doctor and then says ‘if you stop’ implying that not everyone will need to stop…

The paper is written by sociologists with a gender bias.

it would be interesting to see what an endocrinologist or obstetrician had to say about their findings. In fact, you know those “reaction videos? Can we get that? Live reaction to this fresh hell?

That’s a fair point, and I’m no expert but I do know that maternal testosterone levels in the blood to not transfer directly to the foetus. The aromatase enzyme in the placenta, converts androgens including testosterone into estrogens, which is adjusted accordingly so that a male fetus gets more testosterone and the female fetus is protected from direct transfer of maternal testosterone

A study was done on rats where they doubled the amount of testosterone in the maternal blood (testosterone already goes up by 70% in females when pregnant, so this was double the higher pregnancy level) and it had no impact on the level of testosterone in the foetus. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3162507/

They need to sort out their double standards and put babies and women first in all of this shitshow. They wouldn't even let me take my life-saving mental health medication during pregnancy/breastfeeding and I almost died 7 times (and the baby almost died with me). That medication has a good safety profile and is recommended to continue it during pregnancy/BF but they "didn't want to take the risk" and fuck my baby's (and my) actual survival.

But idiots who need to feel all manly can put babies at risk with untested cytotoxic drugs (and all hormones are classed as cytotoxic pharmaceutically speaking). And instead of saying anything they've decided the benefit (to the transperson's feelz) outweighs the risk (to the baby).

The study you quoted literally says testosterone is associated with fetal growth restriction and that, while you are correct it's not crossing the placenta, it is instead affecting the function of the placenta (which the baby is dependent on for continued survival until birth).

Fetal growth restriction is a serious threat to fetal survival, as is placental failure. Low birth weight is associated with all sorts of poor neonatal outcomes.

The paper was just looking at the mechanism of action.

Again, associated which isn’t a causal link and also only in RATS who don’t have one foetus but five or six.

Also, not one baby rat pup was lost due to IUGR. So in the end, it wasn’t a threat to their survival.

Why do you think it is OK ChopperC110P to carry out what is essentially live experimentation in this manner when we don't know the outcomes for the babies?

Why do you think it is OK when mothers with health issues are told that they must stop their medication even if stopping their medication harms them?

Why do you think that a person's identity outweighs potential unknown risks to babies?

I just don't follow the logic at all. If a transman is giving birth they are not living as a man when doing a thing that only females can do, so I just don't get it. I personally think it is selfish and defies all logic. It is another example of how trans identifying people have special rules which doesn't at all sit with this notion of them being the most discriminated against / vulnerable proportion of society.

Why do you think it is OK ChopperC110P to carry out what is essentially live experimentation in this manner when we don't know the outcomes for the babies?
Consent. Every transman is consenting. And precedent as we are all live experiments for tons of things…I mean look at history. Leaded petrol, lead paint, asbestos, various vaccines, GMO foods, etc

Why do you think it is OK when mothers with health issues are told that they must stop their medication even if stopping their medication harms them?
Because presumably a doctor is telling them and the medication is actually proven to be harmful to the foetus in controlled studies with human females and not an unknown potential. History hasn’t been kind to us with unknown potential risks—- it was once thought that going over 20mph in a car could potentially cause our uteruses to fall out of our bodies and cause a miscarriage so pregnant women were not recommended to ride in or drive cars.

Why do you think that a person's identity outweighs potential unknown risks to babies?
I think most needs outweigh ‘potential unknown risks’….your desire to go on holiday outweighs the ‘potential unknown risks’ of going to a foreign country does it not? And even the known risks too! And besides, other animal studies have shown a net benefit to elevated maternal testosterone levels to offspring…it’s a big unknown and we don’t ban things for potential unknowns. We don’t even ban alcohol in pregnancy and that is beyond proven to be very risky to the foetus.

I just don't follow the logic at all. If a transman is giving birth they are not living as a man when doing a thing that only females can do, so I just don't get it. I personally think it is selfish and defies all logic. It is another example of how trans identifying people have special rules which doesn't at all sit with this notion of them being the most discriminated against / vulnerable proportion of society.

You aren’t following the logic because that is not the logic being used. You are thinking of this as a question of living as a man or woman, when it should he approached the same way we approach any substance in pregnancy.

The logic being is there any proof that elevated testosterone levels are harmful to a foetus? There isn’t any (yet) there are only associations and some animal studies that show short term growth reduction but post natal catch up and long term gain.

Sorry meant to clear the quote before posting

And I think doctors have the right to say no. Their training, their brains and their licence.

Doctors, say no to these women who want to take male hormones for their mental helath illness whereby they can't accept they are females.

It's not their bodies they are affecting, it's the unborn child.

Consent. Every transman is consenting. And precedent as we are all live experiments for tons of things…I mean look at history. Leaded petrol, lead paint, asbestos, various vaccines, GMO foods, etc

The baby can't consent.

There isn't any proof about lots of things that are prohibited in pregnancy either, this is a category of women getting special treatment in pregnancy because they identify as trans.

You say yourself that there isn't any proof (yet) that testosterone is harmful, but who cares about the baby eh, so long as the trans persons gender feelings are taken cared of?

Most vulnerable and discriminated against they are NOT.

They love the attention though.

The baby can't consent.
Consent is not required from an unborn foetus nor are they capable of consent for anything from the mother burping to the mother terminating the life of the foetus. So let’s not pretend that consent of a foetus is of any consideration at all.

There isn't any proof about lots of things that are prohibited in pregnancy either This is not true. There is scientific proof behind everything prohibited.

this is a category of women getting special treatment in pregnancy because they identify as trans. No, it’s not at all. You were pregnant, could you go out and buy alcohol and cigarettes? Why yes you could, and you could smoke like a chimney and drink like a fish and those are known and proven to be extremely harmful to a foetus. I do not think that a transman taking testosterone which is not proven to be harmful at all and even animal studies do not show any long term risks is “special treatment”. If anything, it’s you holding them to a different standard by thinking it should be banned.

Are you seriously conflating a persons ability to purchase alcohol and cigarettes to prescribed and controlled medication.

You are deluded if you think that any of this is fair or equitable or the rights of an unborn child are not considered in medical ethics.

The same arguments about the rights of the foetus can be used for any controlled medication, but they aren't because women who identify as trans are being treated more favourably than other women, some of these women are seriously ill.

under no circumstances does any doctor ever prescribe thalidomide to a pregnant woman

Those rat pups will have been born with genital deformities. Genital abnormalities in rats exposed to pre natal testosterone

being bathed in abnormal levels of testosterone during development is going to cause problems for that person, we don’t know which ones.

very few mothers to be would knowingly take substances which will harm their unborn child. taking testosterone while building a body that belongs to someone else is so selfish that I think it means you are unfit to parent. It shows an inability to put the needs of the baby before your own wants.

you are not going to be the person who pays the price for taking a known teratogen.

it is morally corrupt

it is not ok to do this on purpose. Trans men who fall pregnant must stop taking cross sex hormones. They must not say they have stopped and buy it on the black market instead.

Women are advised fo make lifestyle changes in pregnancy. Gender doesn’t change that.

Testosterone is a teratogen

So then the patient - with their doctor - weighs up the risk of not treating their cancer (or other illness) with Thalidomide or is offered an alternative or may have a medical termination. I guess a trans person has to consider their options too.

I have heard nothing to suggest that Thalidomide is being prescribed to pregnant women suffering from cancer these days.

Can anyone confirm that it is?

Surely no one hopes for a neuro divergent child?!

Thalidomide isn't prescribed to pregnant women and there are stringent safeguards (including pregnancy tests every 4 weeks) during treatment to ensure safety. Men also have to use safeguarding measures if their partner is able to get pregnant. Pregnant women are not even able to touch thalidomide due to the risks