To stop all extra activities due to attitude in 9yo?

[AttitudeOnHer]

Always been the same so it’s not end of year burnout or anything.

DD is 9, just finishing Yr4 but has SN.

The attitude is appalling. Refusing to tidy up the mess she made with her toys and crafts, refusing to take plate into the kitchen after eating, refusing to get a drink or demanding it of me.

Taking toys or sweets or desert away doesn’t work because she walks down the road to ExH where she gets all these things and I can’t stop her seeing her dad. Throwing them in the bin means she asks ExH to replace them which he does.

Shouting at her results in her melting down and I end up hit, kicked and scratched at. Setting a timer and telling her to do as much as she can in that time results in her turning the timer over every time it gets half way or cancelling the timer on Alexa. If I do a timer on my phone she doesn’t even listen to it. Praise results in her going “I did a good job and now deserve a rest” after she’s picked up literally one thing or she’ll grumble and tell me she’s going to dads house as she doesn’t have to tidy up there.

My only leeway is her extracurricular activities – I’d keep swimming as she needs to learn to swim but she’s chosen a holiday club based on her current obsession and I can always book her into the normal one where none of her friends are going (current obsession is Musical Theatre and she’s booked onto a 4 week holiday course she’s very excited – it’s more expensive than the normal none theme based holiday club where she’d do craft etc). I can stop her going on the none compulsory residential in Year 5 – all other trips are compulsory and educational so I’d keep those but the residential is a completely optional 2 night trip, the Year 6 4 nights is also optional. I can stop paying for Scouts in September.

But then I get screamed at and told I can’t cancel them. ExH refuses to pay for them so she won’t get them back. But I feel guilty because they help her so much, in terms of how she feels about herself. But I think it’s my only thing I can do. All I want is for her to tidy up or take her plate out or make herself a drink, nothing that she’s incapable of.

She's always been like this, since me and ExH split when she was toddler, she's always got her own way at dads and not forced to do anything she doesn't want to do. School try and foster her independence to, but she also shuts down there, I don't think doing it for her is the way to go but I have no way of showing her this.

AIBU to cancel her stuff?

Surely that depends entirely on whether she's incapable of stopping herself, or just hasn't had it drilled into her that she isn't allowed to?

I agree with PPs that clarification on the nature of her SEN is needed here - people are operating on very different assumptions of how severe and relevant it is.

Yes you absolutely can until she's put her plate away. She can't just walk out of your house as and when she decides.

I'd take smaller things away, like the TV and tablet.

So you haven't read the thread then...

I really get where your coming from and years ago I would have probably considered parenting this way but I think it ends up being counter productive especially if the clubs are helping her generally with her MH. As others have said, I would make it as easy as possible for her to keep her things tidy and maybe even involve her on choosing storage solutions that might help. I would make the tidying as part of a routine and discuss that with her at a time she’s feeling calm and positive. Then it won’t come as as an annoying surprise to her when she’s due to do it. Perhaps also have it tied to a regular treat, e.g if it’s Sunday mornings you want her to tidy then make it clear well before with reminders (perhaps visual too - a calendar in her room) that is when room tidying will be and then you go out for ice cream etc. Suggest ways she can make the activity fun too, e.g putting music on etc and offer to help her so didn’t feel so overwhelming. My DC hates the idea of tidying her room etc but once they get into they finds she seems quite pleased with themselves.
I’m definitely going to try and start limiting the potential for
them creating any more mess, no more
craft things or Lego or if they get them as presents no more than a small box out
the garage at once

SN are Dyslexia and Dyspraxia. I didn't want to say earlier as i'm still not convinced they're causing all the issues. But there was some good tips on here which I am definitely going to follow.

I don't want to and won't stop her going to her dads, it's a bit of independence and control at an age where she needs it. I will however have a chat with her about it and get her to understand why I don't think she should go.

I know part of it is trying to see her dad more, so I think I will try and tackle that with him.

And when I say I can't move, it's not an excuse. I have a really nice private rental, paying under market value for, close to DDs school where she gets incredible support and is very happy. In the grand scheme of things this issue is small, I was just at the end of my tether with it yesterday but I do think reading this thread has given me some good tips which I will take into account.

But she is already having independence just by going over by herself, the freedom to just walk out and go whenever she wants without asking is a step further than most parents would go.

A child that, at 9, is telling their mother they don't see why they have to do as asked and refusing to do so - and also saying that they think an adult should have to do it for them and they should get to be treated like a child - does not seem like a child that needs, or has earned, more independence. That needs to be balanced with respect for her mother, and an understanding that with grown up independence, comes grown up responsibility. It's madness to just let her decide to walk off and go to her dad's when she is in the middle of getting in trouble, to avoid consequences.

If i were you i would also pick my battles. A list of non negotiables , and natural consequences. If she kicks off or runs to dad, again no fuss at all he will eventually get bored of it, especially if it's not just sweets or drinks or buying a craft kit every now and then.

If she can't keep her stuff tidy, fine but she must keep it in her room. Anything left in the living room for example , goes in the bin (after a warning) next time you clean. Rinse and repeat. If her room is a tip, fine let her live in filth, but you're not replacing anything lost or broken. You're not running around helping her find her favourite tshirt or dance outfit. Oh she will kick off and test you, just keep calm, remind her of the rules , end off. Don't engage in argument or debate over all the whys and ifs and buts. If dad is happy to replace stuff at this rate, that's his problem. She's still learning her behaviour has consequences.

@AngryGreasedSantaCatcus Thank you that was along the lines I was thinking of, except I won't go in her room if I can't get in there, so if that means no story etc then that means no story

Hi @AttitudeOnHer you've said bans and confiscations don't work, and the one thing that keeps her calm is her special interest. Taking away her special interest is really unlikely to end well.

If the SN is autism, and you mention meltdowns, special interest etc so it may be, you need to recognize that conventional parenting techniques, particularly with regards to discipline are very unlikely work.

You're likely to get more appropriate advice on the Special Needs topic than you are on AIBU.

You need to find ways of defusing these situations, not escalating them.

I missed @AngryGreasedSantaCatcus excellent post.

@AttitudeOnHer I hope you don't mind, but I recommend against using mother/daughter time, times when you reconnect and enjoy each other etc as a punishment. It can breed actual resentment, feelings of rejection, insecurity ,feeling unloved etc. You can do it in another room if you can't actually get in (so she still gets slightly inconvenienced) but do make sure you keep these times together and the bond going . Also increase this time as a reward, without necessarily expressing it. So if she does x,y,z you can say things like "oh so glad we got this out of the way, now we can watch a movie" , "oh it's so nice to be in your room(because she tidied it) let's read two stories tonight", " since I don't have to do x,y,z (whatever job /chore she did) today ,how about we do a,b,c (activity she enjoys to do with you".

Another trick is to ask her to do stuff, but end with thank you instead of please. It works quite well. Obviously don't overuse it as it'll just become background noise. Maybe once a day for something you really want her to do.

Also choices(only two, that you are comfortable with) that mean something is happening anyway. "Will you put your crafts in the box or the cupboard?" / "Are you getting yourself water or milk?" . And just keep repeating no matter how she argues (I don't want to, I'm not doing it, nowhere, etc.) ,if she kicks off let her be and revisit later with the exact two same choices.

@AngryGreasedSantaCatcus Thank you so much, those are really great tips, I'll definitely do that

We have agreed rules as DD is very ruled orientated, she came up with most of these.

1. She will always be expected to put all rubbish in the bin - I am buying a bin for next to her favourite chair so she doesn't have to get up

2. If she asks me politely I will take her plate/cup/whatever to the kitchen

3. Same with a drink, I'll make it if she speaks to me politely I will make her a drink

If she is rude to me she will be expected to do these things herself and the consequence will be no TV when she eats at the next meal.

4. She can go to her dads whenever she wants but she leaves via either the front door or garden gate she does not climb out of windows as this is dangerous

If I find her going through the windows these will be locked (she can't use the window keys they're too small) and will have to ask to go to her dads

5. If dad or grandparents aren't home she comes straight home so we know where she is

6. if dad/grandparents are in she texts me to tell me or asks one of the adults to text me so I know where she is and that she is safe

If I have to text them or her to find out the consequence will be me getting a stronger lock for the front door and gates to stop her going and she will only be allowed to go in her set contact pattern

If she follows the rules she decided for 1 week she will earn a trip to her favourite local zoo which has a petting farm bit and a sensory room.

She told me she feels very tired and her brain is very busy at the moment and she doesn't like being rude to me, which I do believe. She has made these rules up herself on discussion with me.

Will update next week to see how it goes.

Great stuff @AttitudeOnHer good 🤞

I'd call her bluff and send her to her dads. If you're walking distance away she will soon miss you and the safety of someone caring about them enough to parent her. Don't let her hold this against you to blackmail you with.

Sorry OP but you will always make her a drink if she asks nicely, or take her plate out for her! You aren't doing her any favours by being her maid when she chooses it!

That sounds like a positive shift.

Does she show a range of traits of ASD/ ADHD? I know you've said dyslexia/ dyspraxia and they will affect her ability to form routines and organise herself, but some of the response to stress/ demands sounds like there could be more to it and it's fairly common for people to have a combination of ND conditions together. Both my DCs are dyslexic, but DS1 also has a combination of dyspraxia and ASD which is stressful in itself as it's very frustrating to balance perfectionist traits with poor executive function and reduced co-ordination.

Good luck with the new strategy.

It’s normal to make a drink for your 9 year old child.

I’d be very worried if my 9 year old was leaving the house without permission. If someone dangerous sees that she leaves on her own accord regularly without you knowing then she could become a target. I think it needs to be agreed and you need to know she’s arrived safely. She’s only 9. This is a safeguarding concern.

The liking of rules also suggests some more ND.

I do think ASD and/or ADHD but school and other professionals don't agree right now. I will push for it in the new school year.

They can be demand avoidant.

My 17 year old started making her own drinks about 12. She got overwhelmed with kettles etc. we used to think she was lazy. But now in hindsight she was demand avoidant and overwhelmed. She’s still like it now.

Easy to misinterpret as lazy.

It might be your normal but was never mine thank fuck. And both my dc are ND, both could make themselves a glass of squash if they wanted one at 9. I think they were using the kettle at beavers/cubs for badges at that age to.

I make my 9 year old drinks if she asks for one. She often does it herself but sometimes asks nicely. Equally I sometimes ask my DH to make me a drink, and he does 🤷🏻‍♀️

Be careful with delayed consequences like 'no tv with the next meal'... but otherwise those sound good.

I would tell your Ex however (not her, this isn't actually about her so much)... if she walks out to go to his to avoid doing as she is told, you WILL immediately lock up and go out, and you will return when YOU feel like it.

So he is then 'holding the baby' until YOU feel like being available again.

I doubt it would take many repetitions of that for him to start telling her either not to do this or to come home immediately.