To stop all extra activities due to attitude in 9yo?

[AttitudeOnHer]

Always been the same so it’s not end of year burnout or anything.

DD is 9, just finishing Yr4 but has SN.

The attitude is appalling. Refusing to tidy up the mess she made with her toys and crafts, refusing to take plate into the kitchen after eating, refusing to get a drink or demanding it of me.

Taking toys or sweets or desert away doesn’t work because she walks down the road to ExH where she gets all these things and I can’t stop her seeing her dad. Throwing them in the bin means she asks ExH to replace them which he does.

Shouting at her results in her melting down and I end up hit, kicked and scratched at. Setting a timer and telling her to do as much as she can in that time results in her turning the timer over every time it gets half way or cancelling the timer on Alexa. If I do a timer on my phone she doesn’t even listen to it. Praise results in her going “I did a good job and now deserve a rest” after she’s picked up literally one thing or she’ll grumble and tell me she’s going to dads house as she doesn’t have to tidy up there.

My only leeway is her extracurricular activities – I’d keep swimming as she needs to learn to swim but she’s chosen a holiday club based on her current obsession and I can always book her into the normal one where none of her friends are going (current obsession is Musical Theatre and she’s booked onto a 4 week holiday course she’s very excited – it’s more expensive than the normal none theme based holiday club where she’d do craft etc). I can stop her going on the none compulsory residential in Year 5 – all other trips are compulsory and educational so I’d keep those but the residential is a completely optional 2 night trip, the Year 6 4 nights is also optional. I can stop paying for Scouts in September.

But then I get screamed at and told I can’t cancel them. ExH refuses to pay for them so she won’t get them back. But I feel guilty because they help her so much, in terms of how she feels about herself. But I think it’s my only thing I can do. All I want is for her to tidy up or take her plate out or make herself a drink, nothing that she’s incapable of.

She's always been like this, since me and ExH split when she was toddler, she's always got her own way at dads and not forced to do anything she doesn't want to do. School try and foster her independence to, but she also shuts down there, I don't think doing it for her is the way to go but I have no way of showing her this.

AIBU to cancel her stuff?

I agree with pp's you need to flip this and encourage her to 'earn' privileges with good behaviour rather than punish for bad. E.g. if you cancel her going to scouts in September because she's been 'bad' the first week she should have been at scouts she'll be cross/upset but after that so what? Whereas if you continue with scouts but have a sticker chart or whatever, in the week leading up to scouts night she has to have ticked off take plate to kitchen, made bed/tidy bedroom and tidied up toys/crafts before tea each day to earn going to scouts that week, if not she misses that week but starts again to earn going next week. Agree with her a system of how many times you will remind her about each thing every day and then stick to it, without shouting or getting angry, focus on positivity and encouraging her to do things so that she gets to do the fun stuff - good luck!

Those who have said to parent a different way, what way?
What way is the best with ADHD?

Have you tried awarding yourself stars on a star chart? I never did this, but another mother at school did and said she had quite good results.

You have a star chart, and a picture of the reward. Something that your DD will like. Every time she refuses, don't create a fuss, just do it yourself and give yourself stars.

The other mother said it had no effect for a couple of days, until she was getting quite close to the reward (in her case, a trip to a local pizza place, but on her own of course) then her son started to do stuff to stop her getting her reward.

She sounds ND to me and demand avoidant.

Back off with shouting, discipline and removing fun stuff. Be calm and kind and offer options. She sounds very anxious. If she is ND removing stuff/ normal discipline doesn’t work < bitter experience>

If you take away the clubs you’ll have a messy child who also resents you and that won’t make this any easier. Try a proper talk, tell her how it makes you feel.

I don’t think it’s anything to do with 2 parents. She sounds just like my dd when she was 9. She was later diagnosed ASd.

Stop removing things/ punishments/ screaming matches. They all make it worse. Remember this is anxiety driven. Minimise stress as much as possible.

Aww... She's only 9.

Firstly, you need a lock on the door so she can't just walk out.

Secondly, and more importantly, you need to make sure you have loads of close, relaxed time together - read together at night, take her for a coffee in town, sit with her at meal times. Lots of talking about her day, how is she doing, how r her friends etc..

Take time to ask her what she needs from you. Where does she think you could do things better. Listen to her. Really listen.

Then, when she has tasks to do, try and make them fun. Make sure there's a reward for her at the end. So, each time she tidies her things away she can have a sticker and x number of stickers = a reward, for example. Or maybe start with tidying the room together a few times, and praise her how great she is and tell her how wonderful it would be if she could start doing it on her own soon etc..

Stop criticising or focussing on the poor behaviour. Just focus on rewarding the good behaviour

Keep a diary of all the positive things she does - put everything it - from thanking you for something, to getting to school on time, to brushing teeth when asked. Don't include ANYTHING negative in the book.

And keep your expectations of a 9 year old with sn a bit lower than they r now. My 9 yr old doesnt't have sn, but doesn't always do as asked, can be a monkey sometimes! It is v normal.

💐💐

I have a slightly older daughter with ADHD and ASD.

As usual, here's some good advice on this thread and some poor advice.

Helpful books are The Explosive Child, 10 Days to a Less Defiant Child and Smart But Scattered.

An NVR course might help you (especially if ex would do it too).

If you want to prevent her leaving, you'll need to lock the doors. We've had to do this now and again.

Do not cancel the music theatre.

Definitely don't do sticker charts!

Do you rent or own your home? We can put up with a bit of mess or damage as we own it. I know it's difficult when you're concerned about landlords.

Who also has nowhere to go, nothing to keep her busy and burn some of her energy and frustrations. Who is also now not doing group, adult led activities where she will learn the behaviours you want- following instructions for example.

removing her xtra curriculars is self destructive. I’d be signing her up for more 😂. Gives you a break, takes her focus off rebelling against you, and puts he in an environment where she can’t be obstructive.

Is your daughter autistic? Does she have PDA?

Is she coming in with a heavy emotional load from masking all day at school?

Just speaking personally I would never remove extra cirricular activities from any child - they are good for their social and emotional development - I would hate to think they would just sit and do nothing at home instead.

Don't do sticker charts with an autistic or PDA child.

You need to follow behaviour advice related to SEN children or you are just going to get a more stressed child who is still not doing what you ask.

Tidy up together. I’ve found with my ASD l just have to do more for/ with her.

Do you actually believe that stopping your DD from doing her summer club activity will make her pick up sweet wrappers and plates in future? If not, then you'd be doing it purely to punish her, for revenge, which is never a very successful tactic to change someone's behaviour, and will almost certainly lead to a further deterioration in your relationship with DD. Try to come at this from a positive outcomes point of view. What's most likely to lead to things improving? There is some good advice here on this thread.

MN is very against any kind of severe punishment but I'd be doing what you've suggested, yes.

She'd be told that 9 year old's DO have to learn to tidy up after themselves, it is not the adults job to do it for them, and that they are also not allowed to go out without their parents permission. You absolutely can stop her from going, she should be asking before going out.

If she didn't improve her attitude, she wouldn't be allowed to go.

She woukdnt be allowed to visit her father?🤨

That will solve everything….🙄

As others suggest, there may be some form of PDA going on here, but I can't help wondering whether she is playing you and her dad off against one another?

How much time does she actually spend with him? I don't mean when she goes round there in one of her strops, I mean actually staying there for days at a time.

I agree with this. Stopping the activities would be counterproductive on two fronts.

You need a break from your DD and she will be much happier and more positive (and hopefully easier to engage) if she has spent time with friends doing something constructive rather than sat at home bored with a stressed parent.

Who is that aimed at?

This

*You absolutely can stop her from going, she should be asking before going out.

If she didn't improve her attitude, she wouldn't be allowed to go*

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow Those two sentences were unconnected. She would need to ask permission before just leaving to go to her dad's, or anywhere for that matter.

And if she didn't improve her attitude, she wouldn't be allowed to go to camp, not her dad's.

The only think I’d note is that these things are all punishment for not doing something. But what about reward for doing it?
if she has ADHD for example, she’s likely to forget to do stuff, not want to be told to do stuff, and a distant punishment is meaningless. A lengthy punishment is also meaningless.

i think you also need a really clear conversation of what’s allowed in your house. Dads house and the rules there are irrelevant, it’s insane he still has total power over your home and parenting effectively.
and i do think it’s worrying you (both) have zero control over her and she has no consistency right now, because the teenage years are going to be difficult. Obviously that’s not really your fault, but it sounds like it’s going to be your job to fix it unfortunately.

alternatively, do cut the privileges, do cut the money for activities and tell her to go to her dads. Dads is so good, you can drop stuff on the floor? Great. Off you go then.
Dont come back until you’re ready to act like a useful member of the house. I suspect they both may find it’s not actually that good full time. But obviously that’s a risky plan.

What's your relationship like with her dad?

I would like your post too.

Her dad doesn't want her, literally he brings her home a few hours later. Contact is set in a pattern on 1 overnight EOWend but she pops in whenever she wants. He doesn't want her fulltime, I've offered and he just says he likes what he has.

He will not do mediation or anything with me, he literally thinks I'm too harsh on her but then says she has no SN and is a typical 9yo. His own parents waited on him hand and foot until he was well into his 20s, he very rarely does much now.

I can't move, my house is private rent and I wouldn't get another private rental for the same cost. And I wouldn't get into social housing. But also means I'm limited in what I can do, there's a lock on the door but she can get a chair to open it or she opens the windows and climbs out, goes off to her dads then comes home a few hours later having eaten sweets or icecream and been waited on. She also walks there after school as Y4 and above parents aren't allowed on school grounds and there's 2 ways out, I can't monitor both.

Rewards don't work. She's up for a star chart or marbles in a charge or similar for tidying up or taking her plate out, until it comes to actually doing then she just shouts at me that she doesn't need to do it at dads so she'll go there instead.

I think if her dad wasn't undermining me I'd have a better chance of rewards working on her, because when he goes on holiday (without her I'll add) she will do it as she knows she hasn't got the option of going to her dads.

You gradually build things into a routine for ADHD and have visible and oral reminders. For children it often involves doing a task with them. Like tidying up together or helping them pick an outfit as a guise for making sure they finish getting dressed. When you have demand avoidance it gets more complex though as you have to offer options and give them control over what they do and when they do it. It sounds like making them into the parent, but it isn’t really.

For example for getting ready for school routine, for mine with ASD, ADHD and ODD (severe demand avoidance) I would have a checklist on the fridge of things they needed to do to get ready for school. Get dressed, eat breakfast, brush teeth, put on shoes and coat, get school bag and packed lunch by the door, give mum a hug or fist bump, etc. So, they needed a reminding list due to ADHD. And to avoid the demand avoidance, I’d say you decide what order you want to do these things in. You can change it every day if you want, do not care, (even if it’s brush teeth and then eat breakfast), your choice, you’re in control of us being ready to be out the door by 8:15am. They’d then happily cross them off. I’d also give ten minute and five minute countdown warnings as well.

Lots if praise as they checked items off and I was always there to help if they called. Mum can’t find my school shoes…mum where is my tiny fidget widget I won’t go to school without this specific one and the hundred others I have just will not do! It can be exhausting but you find ways to support it and once it’s a set routine they usually go smoothly. I’ve read it is also called scaffolding.