To stop all extra activities due to attitude in 9yo?

[AttitudeOnHer]

Always been the same so it’s not end of year burnout or anything.

DD is 9, just finishing Yr4 but has SN.

The attitude is appalling. Refusing to tidy up the mess she made with her toys and crafts, refusing to take plate into the kitchen after eating, refusing to get a drink or demanding it of me.

Taking toys or sweets or desert away doesn’t work because she walks down the road to ExH where she gets all these things and I can’t stop her seeing her dad. Throwing them in the bin means she asks ExH to replace them which he does.

Shouting at her results in her melting down and I end up hit, kicked and scratched at. Setting a timer and telling her to do as much as she can in that time results in her turning the timer over every time it gets half way or cancelling the timer on Alexa. If I do a timer on my phone she doesn’t even listen to it. Praise results in her going “I did a good job and now deserve a rest” after she’s picked up literally one thing or she’ll grumble and tell me she’s going to dads house as she doesn’t have to tidy up there.

My only leeway is her extracurricular activities – I’d keep swimming as she needs to learn to swim but she’s chosen a holiday club based on her current obsession and I can always book her into the normal one where none of her friends are going (current obsession is Musical Theatre and she’s booked onto a 4 week holiday course she’s very excited – it’s more expensive than the normal none theme based holiday club where she’d do craft etc). I can stop her going on the none compulsory residential in Year 5 – all other trips are compulsory and educational so I’d keep those but the residential is a completely optional 2 night trip, the Year 6 4 nights is also optional. I can stop paying for Scouts in September.

But then I get screamed at and told I can’t cancel them. ExH refuses to pay for them so she won’t get them back. But I feel guilty because they help her so much, in terms of how she feels about herself. But I think it’s my only thing I can do. All I want is for her to tidy up or take her plate out or make herself a drink, nothing that she’s incapable of.

She's always been like this, since me and ExH split when she was toddler, she's always got her own way at dads and not forced to do anything she doesn't want to do. School try and foster her independence to, but she also shuts down there, I don't think doing it for her is the way to go but I have no way of showing her this.

AIBU to cancel her stuff?

I think I’d try very hard to get some sort of conversation going with her dad and grandparents about applying some common tactics so Dd has some firmer boundaries.

Even if you disagree on many things surely nobody wants their child to grow up as a total brat that nobody wants to be around? Obviously you don’t have to phrase it that way.

What's the SN? I suspect it could very well be burnout whether end of year if just end of day. Have you tried low arousal/demand techniques?

What do you mean you can’t stop her?? She’s 9 not 15! You can’t stop your 9 year old leaving the house?

Get the access arrangements done formally and stick to them. It sounds like he’s a big part of the problem.

Your child’s attitude is caused by the inconsistency between your household and her dad’s household. You need a conversation with him about implementing consistent boundaries across the houses. The best way of stopping her going to her dad’s whenever she wants is if he brings her straight back unless it’s a prearranged contact.

I would be very reluctant to stop the holiday activities for her, but her dad needs to step up and back you up with discipline.

You still haven't addressed the SEN.
How do these impact her daily life?

My child has SEN. Punishments don't work. It's never the answer

No, you should not cancel any of her activities at all. Especially not one involving her passion and with her friends.

Her behaviour is due to her SN, look up autism and demand avoidance.
You’ve been punishing her for a disability she has.

You’re using parenting techniques for NT children, which do not work on children with SN

You might want to get advice from your Ex on how to better parent her.

Or maybe OP needs to learn ND parenting from the dad.

Shouting at her results in her melting down
Don't do this.

What’s her SN?
my daughter is 10 with SN and no way would she be walking down the road on her own. So it’s important for you to be clear on her SN needs so we can make a realistic evaluation of whether it’s appropriate to punish her for her behaviours or whether her behaviours are as a result of her SN or some parenting issues. She’s only 9.

I don't think the behaviour you've described from her sounds that bad/unusual for the age (though very annoying and cheeky!) and I think the punishments you're proposing sound unnecessarily draconian and punitive.

You set the rules for your house, your ex sets the rules for his house. So if she wants to do crafts/ have snacks etc. in your house, she has to tidy up. Otherwise no crafts or nice snacks, just meals. Any craft stuff or treats she brings back from her dad's, I'd put in a high cupboard for her to take with her next time she goes to his. Your house, your rules. His house, his rules.

And you absolutely should stop her just walking out. What does she do if he's not in? Wait on the doorstep or come back? Personally I'd put a high latch on the door so she has to ask permission to go out. Not to be mean or controlling, but as her parent you need to know where she is.

Lock the door?

Punishment is just going to kept increasing the tension. You're angry and you want to punish her because you're cross. But it doesn't actually bloody work. You need to swallow those self indulgent feelings and trying to connect with your daughter. Maybe she needs support for a while doing things even if she is capable and theoretically knows what to do.

When someone changes their behaviour in the face of your anger you haven't taught them something you've forced them into submission.

Making someone feel bad never leads to permanent healthy changes in behaviour. Motivation for behavioural change is intrinsic not extrinsic. Depending on the special needs, your daughter could have huge issues with executive functions which cover the whole mess scenario.

Children do well when they can.

I've two SN children of my own.

tell her to move in to her Fathers permanently

No way would my DC have left the house alone age 9. Agree with PP you need to make this impossible.

I think you have made it easy for her to play you off against her dad my living so close by. Can you move?

If her behaviour is so bad, I would selfishly not want to cancel any trips away she had booked. Sounds like you need the break!

You need to fix days with her dad so that you can parent effectively on your time. A 9yo shouldn’t be going anywhere without your permission - that’s the boundary to focus on reinforcing

Can you switch it round so she earns stuff with positive behaviour? Every time she does something “good” she gets a sticker in the notebook/marble in the jar and there is a reward (the more exciting summer camp, something she wants her dad won’t/can’t get, another term at Scouts, etc.). Start with really small “good” things that you notice her doing, and build up. She might be more motivated by reward than punishment and it also makes the ongoing link (doing what you ask = clubs continue) more visible rather than a sort of “that’s the last straw: no more clubs” sort of consequence?

Missed a bit - I meant a reward once she has enough stickers/marble jar is full. Not a reward literally every time!

This.

I believe in 'natural consequences'

For example my son kept running off up the road to school away from me and so the next day he had to hold my hand, there and back. The next day I told him if he didn't walk nicely he'd have to hold my hand again. He also has SN, not diagnosed yet we are on a waiting list for assessment. I have found that logical explanations for why he has to do something/not do something work well with his personality as well, rather than random punishments.

A messy room doesn't really correlate with missing out on clubs. I would take her things away, box them up and put them in the loft if she can't keep her room tidy. And tell her she can't eat in her bedroom if she can't bring her plates down etc.. Although if she has an issue being organised because of SN it might be helpful to try and put systems in place for her to be able to tidy up first. Have a de clutter and then get labelled boxes to help her keep on top of it.

When my son has a bad attitude I tell him that he embarrasses me when he's rude to me so if he talks to me like that, we have to stay indoors so nobody else can hear him being mean. Which, to be honest is the absolute truth. It's not always obvious what the natural consequences could be for every behaviour but I always try to figure it out.

Hi OP,

As many other people have said, you need to make it clear how her SEN affects her daily life so we can make a more informed decision.

As someone who is autistic, shouting does not work. It just frustrates and upsets the person until they don't want to be in that environment anymore.

My mum used to call me a mini tornado growing up because I was messy, but one thing I will say is that if she left my plates and didn't move them for me, I'd eventually get around to moving them myself.

Please don't ask her to do something and if she says "I'll do it in a minute" please do not do it yourself, she will be come accustomed to that! She will do it, she just needs time to process what she has to do, even if she leaves the room.

As other people have said this could also be dismissive avoidance.

You haven't replied to anyone about how her SEN affects her or about people telling you to read books or look into things, which makes me think you're not willing to do anything for her to learn about her SEN.

I would “like” this if I could 💛

2 out of 4 of my DC are neurodivergent. When I look back at the way I parented DC1, in comparison to the way I parent DC3, I cringe and I hate myself for the way I parented and “punished” and for the long term effect that has undoubtedly had on his self esteem and might have on his future mental health.

It was a late diagnosis and I suspected ADHD but I didn’t know, it was much harder to get advice and help back then and I didn’t advocate for him and educate myself in way I should have done.

DC3 has ADHD and ASD. I treat her so differently because I knew better now.

We have a low demand environment, I never shout, and I wouldn’t dream of punishing her for having a meltdown (I actually used to tell DS1 off while he was in the midst of one and threaten all sorts!)

But I know more now. I take advice, I seek out information and knowledge and educate myself, I support DD and I understand that although she is academically capable, she is still much “ younger” than her age is some ways (and “older” in others it seems!)

She is out today and I am going to tidy her bedroom. We work on it together but I want to give it a head start this week for her.

I don’t tidy her art and craft stuff away though, she doesn’t what it out of sight and she is always working on little “projects” so I move it on to one or two shelves where she can still see it (agreed in advance) and I don’t throw away the bits that look like rubbish, I follow her lead on that.

There are times that I have gone it and it’s looked like Picasso’s studio in there 🙈 and I have sighed while whole working through it, or seen that there is acrylic paint on the desk… but it’s not that big a deal.

She has executive function deficits and is easily distracted so she needs help to organise, she is making some progress and we set up routines and strategies together.

My ND children have needed different parenting strategies to my NT DC (who feel like a walk in the park when it comes to following instructions, understanding consequences and impulse control!)

But if I simply told her to “tidy it all up” then i’d be setting her up to fail, and why I would I do that?

Meh, I’d tell her that as soon as she next steps out of line, the musical theatre is being cancelled. And then follow through with it when she inevitably does. She has absolutely no respect for you and she needs to learn.

SEN aside you seem to be letting her behave like she's the adult who gives all the orders and you are the helpless 9 year old who can't do anything about it. Maybe living so near her dad is part of the problem here? Maybe it's time to move away.

Don't take away the clubs and trips. These are so crucial to children. To me they aren't a "nice to have" but am integral part of their education and development

Do get some proper parenting support/advice.

I would go with consequences. If she leaves stuff out it will go in the bin.