What is going on with British kids?

[FrenchAreDoingSomethingRight]

On holiday in France. An upmarket holiday camp and we are the only British family here. It was recommended by a French friend and I didn't realise it only has French families on holiday

Dinner is set 3 course dinner. My kids are 5 and 3. My older boy has ADHD we think (referred by school), our younger one doesn't as far as we know. Both kids are trying their hardest at dinner. There is v loud music playing and the pool party bit is still open. They run off after every course for a dance. Older one tries to stand up sometimes. We have colouring in books etc. Really they're fine. At restaurants and pubs they are totally average in terms of being able to sit at the table. No screens.

Not a single French kid has done anything wrong. No screens or even colouring. They might not all be talking to their parents but every single one is sitting through the whole 90 min dinner and waiting to dance at the end. So patient.

Do no French kids have ADHD or ND? Or even just kid like and cheeky? I have always tried my best with dinner times but these kids aren't even considering running off.

What is going on???

Many years ago when I used to travel in motorhome to various countries, I noticed the French were not very used to having disabled children out and about. I used to get many many stares at my son who was a toddler at the time and has down syndrome. It was very strange at the time as if having my son in a supermarket was unheard off. And he was well behaved. So maybe the French are not as liberated as us with disabilities. Never stopped our holidays though

There are some elements of the design of apps and modern websites that are designed to discourage concentration, reflection and active thought.
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2022/jan/02/attention-span-focus-screens-apps-smartphones-social-media
The book Stolen Focus is interesting if a little scary.

I have friends in France (French people) who have 3 kids all with ADHD, so yes they do get it. However there is a lack of understanding of it compared to the U.K. and they have had real trouble getting schools to recognise the problem and give them any support.
Their kids would have struggled to sit in a restaurant at the age yours are. They tended to medicate them if they needed to eg go to a wedding etc so they would behave.

Le French Bashing comments on this thread do not reflect my experience at all. And I’ve lived here a very long time, have French friends, a French DH (CM?!) & ILs, & 2 adult DCs who’ve had excellent childcare, education and healthcare, and I have never witnessed hitting, shouting & shaming. Listening to the BBC recently it seems there’s a “dark side” to parenting the world over, certainly no more so in France than in the UK. Also, France is now no more ableist than anywhere else.

I remember reading the book mentioned by other posters French Children Don't Throw Food. I might be mixing up similar books but I can vaguely remember something about 'the pause' which is not rushing to babies going through the three month sleep regression, but more interestingly, that in France, early years teachers are respected significantly more than in the UK, paid more, and that you have to have a degree to work in early years, and food in nurseries is akin to several quality restaurant courses. Not cereal and beans on toast like UK kids get. So they learn to sit at meal times and eat properly. But I do think letting kids have distraction devices and down time at formal meals that benefit adults is forward thinking rather than regressive.

Thank you! So much fundamental ignorance about ADHD / ND behaviour in this thread! The idea that just having parented your ND child “properly” and not given them nasty screens and sugar and they would be totally fine is staggering. Neurodivergence is about fundamental neurological differences that can’t just be “fixed” by stopping sugar and spending more time outside. Differences of interoception, proprioception, sensory processing, vestibular input, understanding of social cues, impulse control, emotional regulation and on and on and on. So I would imagine if you have a culture that only accepts “good” behaviour from kids in restaurants, ND families would struggle to go out without feeling judged.

If I’d only had my NT kids I may well have arrogantly assumed that it was my awesome, engaged parenting and superior approach that made them capable of meals in a restaurant. My ND child has disabused me of those ideas.

The French do not tolerate naughty children dining out.
They have proper boundaries around the meal table at home and the children grow up knowing the rules of polite, engaging and enjoyable meals together.

There are different societal norms and expectations, yes. They are on the whole probably more used to dining together at home and in formal settings. On the flip side I remember being appalled as a child in France when I saw how the kids behaved in lift queues when skiing-complete free for all, standing on people's skis and just barging through with no consideration for others. Probably depends where you go.

Teaching children how to behave appropriately in a restaurant is a good thing.

So in other words, they don't understand ADHD at all?

When first peeping into Mumsnet, I was really quite shocked at the number of UK posters who have kids who are ADHD, autistic, both, or with other "neurodivergent" problems. Does seem to be on an epidemic scale with hardly any families unaffected.

I have no explanation.

@TommyNever same here. I didn’t grow up in England and in my home
country (in Europe) I know of nearly no kids with a diagnosis like this. Maybe less advanced or knowledgeable or another explanation? No idea

It's not just a matter of diagnosis though. As the OP describes, it's a matter of the kids' actual behaviour being quite different.

And it has changed markedly with time. I grew up in the UK, Australia and other countries in the 60s and 70s and although there were a few disruptive children, most behaved like the French kids mentioned above.

Last time I went to France I literally witnessed a sibling fallout whereby the 9 year oldish boy was locked in the car as punishment

So..... higher expectations and possibly more extreme punishments?

I grew up in a European country but am British and children on the continent mature much quicker. They're literally talking about sex without giggling by the time they're 11.

I still giggle at sex and I'm 36 ffs

I'm European (not French), but after recently observing my parents in law on holiday to a popular European holiday destination, I think there is a difference between attitudes in general where kids are concerned.

A pp mentioned it; in the UK, so many people are terrified of their kids being bored!

I was asked by my father in law almost every evening on holiday if I had something with me to keep DS entertained. I was so puzzled by this. Why?! We're going for dinner.

Conversation was exclusively directed so DS could join in, he had to be the centre of everything, all in really loud voices so everyone in the restaurant could hear. It drove me insane!

I've spent the last week retraining him that we don't need to talk constantly or play games during meals. It's a precedent nobody can keep up with and it's an unrealistic expectation, which is why I guess you see so many kids here on tablets and phones.

If a kid is used to entertainment on tap, a restaurant is going to be a pretty boring experience, and it's therefore unsurprising that kids might become difficult to deal with.

There was a thread recently where a mother confessed to being on her phone permanently and not interacting with her children. The responses blew my mind - no judgement or criticism.

I despair.

So little understanding of neurodiversity on this thread.

The country I grew up in definitely had children with diagnosed ADHD! They were removed from mainstream schools and didn't partake in the baccalaureate.

In fact it was recommended for children with ASD and ADHD to do GCSEs and National Diplomas at an international school instead. Apparently GCSEs and National Diplomas were a better educational model for neurodivergent children. They'd have to fly to the UK for their exams.

I remember this very clearly as my cousin did it in the 90s and a few kids from his year did the same. It was very common

I’m not sure I see anything ‘wrong’ with kids having colouring books at the table and running off for a dance at a nearby pool party between courses? It doesn’t sound like it’s the Dorchester.

Yep. The French school children who visit our city are appallingly behaved.

We don’t give our kids screens at meal times/bed. No iPhones until age about 11 and try to enforce some regulations around that. (It’s very hard). My kids absolutely are able to sit through a meal quietly. That is what is expected of them and they manage. We suspect our eldest might be ND but she can sit through dinner.

just don’t do screen parenting!

The idea that we're just talking about fundamental genetic differences that have been there all along doesn't really convince, given that the British and French are genetically very similar.

And if you go back a few decades you'll find that most British children's behaviour would be more like the French kids described above.

It does seem that the UK parenting techniques described above seek to anticipate and accommodate potentially disruptive behaviour, thereby helping to establish it as "the norm".

Doubtless there are many other factors involved. Presumably there has been some research into these cultural differences and their effect on children's behaviour.

It was always the case. It just wasn't picked up when we were kids.
I wasn't diagnosed until adulthood, but looking back I have no idea how it was missed. I was just labelled shy and stubborn by the kinder people, and thick, weird and stupid by the not so kind.

Op well over 25 years ago we would go camping in France and our children were 11 9 and 4. Middle child profoundly deaf and has adhd autism etc .we didn’t know he had adhd as it wasn’t really diagnosed as such back then but we would sit in a restaurant and play cards all evening and hangman and we didn’t seem to have an issue even with my middle child.we didn’t even attempt to go out for a meal until middle child could sit nicely ( well for him anyway!) as it was so stressful.I have to say though we did expect them to behave and not run round etc.
the awful thing we found though was how incredibly rude the French families were -they woukd literally sit and stare at our disabled child-it was horrendous-it was like he had two heads.we are talking pointing at him etc more than once we left a place as I got so upset. It was as though they had never seen anything like him before.Honestly if we hadn’t been signing to him I bet they wouldn’t have turned a hair.We were staying alongside german and Dutch families and they were far more polite and didn’t bat an eyelid.
might sounds like you have good strategies in place for your child.

Another flashback here. 1997 I was given a detention at high school for "ADHD" (in Europe)

No help, no advice, no support, no intervention...just a detention

I don't think I do have ADHD but it would have been nice to have been assessed instead of locked in a classroom for 45 mins