To think all workplaces are toxic?

[Stripeymum11]

Is there an inherent indignity in working for someone else?

I’ve worked for years now in schools and am starting to think that I’m just never going to be thick-skinned enough to properly thrive in them.

Each time we adults get a new job, we have to familiarise ourselves with the written policies of a place then, regardless of any personal feelings, have to become a representative of that organisation. Fine. That’s just reality, I shove down my core values and give my time in exchange for money.

But it’s the unwritten policies that really upset me. The cultures of bitchy gossip, the male heavy leadership teams that don’t seem to do very much, the brushing (important safeguarding) issues under the carpet, the passive aggressive management, the reactive management styles.

How so people drag themselves through full time work, knowing they have to endure all of this crap for at least 30 more years without becoming just as bad or really depressed?

Is this what attracts people to leadership roles? So they’re not at the mercy of cruel management themselves?

AIBU

Every single place I've worked has been ruined by miserable, gossiping, horrible people. I don't want to be thick skinned, I just want to go to work and be civil with everyone. I thought care homes would have decent people, boy was I naïve! I've met people who are nurses/pharmacists/football coaches/teachers/firemen and they've been some of the worst people I've endured. You'd think people in a care role would... Care... You'd think teachers would be 100% on the ball for safeguarding, she was one of a few other adults shouting at my DD for standing up for herself against her daughters bullying.

I've noticed, to be popular, you need to be a bitch. It's not likeability that draws people to them, it's the fear of not being on their side.

Managers make or break toxic work places, unfortunately it's sometimes them who enable them. I bet a whole lot more people would work if they didn't have to deal with the negative, social shit.

I think you do have a point but maybe you're also working in the wrong places. Hand on heart I can say I've never had to squash down my core values for a job, but then I work in the third sector for a pittance.

I've definitely experience office gossip culture and I hate it too. Also manager wise: I have had some terrible managers, some indifferent managers and one or two good managers. I'll usually try to work with people as constructively as I can but if it's not happening I won't hesitate to look for another job. I'm not career-oriented (in that I don't really care about progression) so it doesn't matter to me that my CV isn't impressive.

I think you might be working in the wrong places. I've generally had positive workplaces with supportive managers, transparency etc. I've only worked for charities and universities though. Yes you have to follow policies, working hours etc, but I've never felt my 'core values' have to be squashed (I mean, I'm not even sure I have any...)

Gosh I hope not. I’m HR in a small charity. We genuinely care about staff well-being. We don’t micromanage, we value staff and acknowledge achievement. We ask for feedback and act on it and there’s not a gossipy culture.

It’s good to know that not everywhere is like this.
I can (just about) cope when I’m there but there 1st week of the holidays, I feel as though I have ptsd.
Sadly I think it’s true that the major bitches end up the most popular and therefore moving up in the organisation.

there is a reason why many people still work from home for at least part of the week after the pandemic

The only place I have is experienced anything like you've written is when I have worked with other women. I now work as office manager in a construction company, I am the only woman in a team of about 50 and I enjoy each and every day without the gossip and bullshit I've experienced with other females previously.

True. Not an option for a teacher unfortunately.
I am a people person - I get on very well with parents, most colleagues and the children of course, but I find mob mentality perplexing to say the absolute least!

I've never worked in a toxic workplace, and that includes four schools (one of which was in special measures). Maybe I'm lucky, maybe you're unlucky. Maybe the balance is changing, with increasing levels of stress, micromanagement, performance monitoring, etc.

Mumsnet seem to be obsessed with the "policies" of places generally. Every thread - "What does their policy say?" like its gospel or something.

Just an observation. I don't know how I've made it to this age having never knowingly read a load of company policies in my life.

Early 40's and yet to work anywhere where I really like the work mentality.

Currently in my favourite role every, absolutely love the biggest chunk of it - then I go back to the office and I'm micromanaged, there's bitchyness, everyone wants a say/a part of my job.

I work pretty much independently, alongside volunteers who are fab. I do all of my own planning, prep, admin, the lot. Yet my boss just can't leave me alone, she has to tweak everything that I do, almost a bit control freakish. She has no idea really about what I do, and would absolutely hate to do my job (she's not a people person) but likes to interfere. She does it in quite an underhand way too.
Drives me nuts and is currently making me consider looking elsewhere, which is gutting as I love what I do, and most of the rest of the office team!

It's not my experience of work at all, and please let's not go down that dark alley of other women are to blame bs

I don't think all workplaces are inherently toxic.

I do think that any situation where you are spending 40 hours a week with people you wouldn't necessarily have chosen to spend time with is going to result in a few personality clashes at the very least, and on occasion some pretty significant conflicts and poor behaviour which in some places doesn't get nipped in the bud.

I've worked in a couple of places were I felt my own department was toxic, and another where the whole culture of the place was awful. But my current workplace is honestly great, certainly in my department anyway.

I think it varies tremendously across industries and the nature of specific jobs though.

I don’t think work is inherently toxic, no.

It’s situation specific and obviously one person’s toxic bitchy environment is another person’s chatter and banter with their mates.

I do think some workplaces can be exclusive and distrustful of outsiders and some are dominated by particular personalities and politics which can make it very hard to alternative points of view to be heard.

But good companies or organisations work hard to counter these tendencies and support newer people in their journey through a business. I think businesses generally have got better at learning how to identify and break up toxic cliques. I think senior people in companies owe it to more junior staff to help them avoid this.

I think from what you have said that you haven’t found your place.

I think most places have gossiping, people playing politics, setting each other up etc. Some places have it worse than others. But it is always there.

It's just how people are. What's really a problem is when it gets completely out of control. It can happen if you get a lot of bad people together, or if the management are not on top of it. It's not really helped by the fact that personnel management these days is an utter minefield and you have to be really careful how you treat people, otherwise you end up with an unfair dismissal claim.

Ultimately you just have to toughen up and deal with it, or get the hell out.

Thank you all for your thoughts on this.

I’m quite open to being told that I’m being over-sensitive. I’ve been faking a robustness while I’m there, but what I really struggle with is seeing younger members of staff being managed out/ bullied by managers without any knowledge of their rights.

I think my colleagues and my manager would probably be shocked if they knew how much I struggle internally with the dynamics, because outwardly I’m positive, I work hard not to get involved in gossip and above all, I’m confident that I am good at my job.

I can see that humans when in groups, compound the best and worst aspects of each other, especially when we are under pressure to deliver work of a high standard and this depends upon us all as a team.

But I’m sure with the right leaders, there would be less toxicity and more harmony.

My manager is probably oblivious to a lot of the problems that go on under her nose, which is a shame because she has the power to put a stop to these.

I am feeling particularly low about it all at the moment because, after 3 years of staying out of everything, I have found myself dragged in to a situation where I felt I had to tell a colleague that her close colleague was the person who spread a nasty rumour about her which in turn, got her in trouble with the management. I couldn’t watch this woman be upset and confused about who was making up rumours, when I knew full-well who had been doing this. Unfortunately for me, this person is a bit of a bully and will make my next year at school worse, but the layers of deceit were making me feel nauseous.

Writing it down now, I realise that my main worry is being pariah’ed but it’s not exactly pleasant as it is now, so I wouldn’t really be losing anything if that did happen! (I also think that it’s unlikely because I have made some good relationships there).

It is also, I think, quite impossible to work in a toxic workplace where poor communication is the norm, and to not from time to time be the toxic person yourself. Toxic meaning: filled with rage/ confusion/ disempowered/ sad.

What would “toughening up” look like in practice? In your opinion?

Women are bitchy though there’s no doubt about it.

every job I’ve been in from factories to cleaning jobs there’s been low level bitchiness, gossip, badmouthing, women grassing each other up to make themselves look good to the supervisor.

I clean in a school with a team of about ten women, one pathetic incident got so bad our area manager had to come in and sort it out and it was literally like being back in school having to face a teacher ( I wasn’t involved so I didn’t have to)

Ignoring and avoiding stuff that isn't anything to do with you, gossip, poor management practices etc is a good start. After all, you aren't paid for that.

I get it. Some people really want to do their best and don't want to shut up when they see crap going on. I am like this. Tend to tell people what I think and actually want to deal with a problem rather than skirt round the edges.

But the bottom line is that unless you are really mentally strong you can't fight an entire organisation or culture alone.

In some organisations changing things for the better and speaking out on things that are clearly wrong is a good thing. But I suspect in most it just makes you a hated target for the people you piss off in the process of doing so. Generally for one person to look great another has to look stupid. If you are going to speak out to change things, it has to be done with a great deal of care, tact and diplomacy, otherwise you may be threatening someone else's livelyhood. And not surprisingly, they don't always take too kindly to that.

Ultimately over time most of us change from young radicals who want to change the word to hardened cynics who are happy to shut up and take the money and tick the boxes over the course of our careers.

Sad but true. If you aren't interested in being a top level manager and climbing the greasy pole then the sooner you get to this stage the better.

@GasPanic That’s great advice.
I shall try it out this year and see how it goes!

What sort of school do you work in?!?! You're in the wrong school!

I'm a teacher and generally love where I work. A mixture of male and female senior staff, male headmaster, but they usually listen to us, and we kick up a shit storm when they don't and demand changes.

The head is very supportive of staff wellbeing. Happy teachers = good school. Our staff turnover is VERY low (generally those who leave are leaving teaching for good, retiring or relocating).

I'm in the first job (at 50) where I really, really like the people I work with. It's part time though which probably helps prevent us getting sick of each other. I also have a female boss who seems to be on our side.

Yes, I agree, it's toxic.

I've been unhappy in every job I've ever had because of the situations you describe OP.

Could be me, though!

I (female) work in construction for this reason too. Worked in other industries prior to this and the backstabbing was mental. I now sit in meetings and out on site as the only woman where the men and I throw fucks and other expletives at each other and air it all out in the open. Then shake hands and on we go about our day.

I do however have to experience everyday sexism.