Child out of wedlock / illegitimate - does it still matter

[Bananabreadandstrawberries]

Does it still matter in any way whether your child was born within a marriage or not? Is there any stigma to being an ‘unwed mother’ or ‘illegitimate child’ (apologies no offence intended). Do you view people differently before of this status? Are there any practical implications?

For those of you who feel it doesn’t matter, would you still prefer your own daughter were married before having children?

I ask as I feel despite most people not minding this about other people, the couples ‘doing better’ in life still tend to marry before having children. I am not sure

AIBU that legitimacy doesn’t matter anymore?
YES = Makes a difference (even though it’s not PC to say so)
NO = Makes no difference about being married before children.

There are a few legal disadvantages such as if the Father is not named on a child's birth certificate even though he is father, if that father died before child was 18 you might have problems claiming from his estate as if not named in will rules of intestate apply and the man's parents would get estate instead of his child if no legal proof and you might have difficulty proving child was his child after death if not official record, also if you split up and he is not on birth certificate it may be more hassle to get maintenance

Legitimacy matters for inheriting titles if for example Prince William had a male child that was older than Prince George but not born in marriage they would not be heir to throne or indeed a prince even if acknowledged and William was father on birth certificate
Normally if you marry the Father after birth you are supposed to apply for new birth cetificates this was called legitimising, it is now form LA1. However Royalty and the Arisitocracy generally precluded this so the child had to be born after the marriage ( the fact that marriage was not 9 months before birth was not important legally)

these maybe a little out of date but approx 75% of mothers earning more than 40K are married it is 50/50 at average earning of 27K and about 25% if mother on minimum wage or benefits

Names make no difference.

he can make it a pain by refusing permission, regardless of names.

In terms of acceptability no, most people do not consciously stigmatize although there is unconscious bias.

In terms of ensuring good social and economic outcomes yes, it is proven most families where the parents were married before children have better outcomes in all areas

"Illegitimate" is a ludicrously outdated word (and insulting IMHO). The idea that "legitimacy" on a human's life is bequeathed by the fact that their parents undertook some religious ceremony laughable. I literally don't know whether most couples I know are married or not and I couldn't give a shit. It certainly wouldn't influence how I felt about their kids. Anyone who passes judgement on a person based on the marital status of their parents is a narrow-minded bigot.

There are plenty of practical reasons why having married parents may benefit a child: principally down to the legal and financial protection offered to the non-working spouse (usually the mother). And there is anecdotal evidence that married couples tend to be wealthier than unmarried ones.

But none of this has to do with any special magic moral sauce which being married gives anyone.

Just to pick up on something you’ve said, I’ve also noticed something of a distinction between professions/education. All my university friends were married before children; nearly all my colleagues, in a professional role, also married then kids. But I see among my own cousins, the ones who didn’t go to university and/or are working in what might be considered non-professional roles: often trades, retail etc. It’s an interesting one as they are often higher earners than professional roles (esp the tradies). I don’t really know how to explain it. One factor may be that if you went straight into work after school, perhaps you feel ready earlier for kids? But that still wouldn’t explain why you wouldn’t marry first…

I do want to say categorically though, I don’t have any problem with the marital status of parents. What matters is kids are loved and cared for. The above really is a semi-idle observation now that my friends and many family members have kids and/or are marrying.

There is no social stigma to parents being unmarried.

however, the marriage model does provide financial security. It is also a model that is still incredibly popular with certain populations. People with degrees and good incomes still tend to marry before children. They also have a lower divorce rate. it provides a financial partnership with many advantages to both the adults and the children.

when we talk about the increasing inequality in our society, this is something that often doesn’t get mentioned, but it is demonstrated by the statistics.

Agreed, illegitimate children tend to do better in life than those legitimate. It must be down to stability. Its hard to not judge those children born out of wedlock.

No not at all. I had my daughter with my now husband before we got married. We had our daughter 2 years into our relationship and didn’t get married until our daughter was 4. Both had been married before. But we both wanted our daughter to have the same surname as both parents. Old fashioned view and we talked about just changing my surname but decided to get married. We had a very small civil affair. It worked for us.

It is not marriage as a thing in itself that confers stability and better outcomes for children. It is the correlation between higher incomes, and planned parenthood that confers those advantages. So the same advantages can be achieved without marriage if you are aware of what the relevant factors are.

Left out a key bit: among those cousins, none were married before they had kids.

I don't think it makes any difference at all. But I would love to the word "‘illegitimate" removed from the English language.

@ReliantRobyn

Its hard to not judge those children born out of wedlock.

Speak for yourself. I don't judge children born out of wedlock. It wouldn't occur to me to judge them. I judge people who judge others on the basis of things they have no control over.

I wouldn't have children out of wedlock. If I had accidentally got pregnant even 8 years into my relationship with my DH then I would have had an abortion for this reason alone. I married DH 10 years into my relationship (we met young), so it isn't that I was desperate for marriage. My DH and I earnt similar amounts and jointly owned property prior to marriage too, but it's not enough for me personally. Marriage offers legal protections outlined by others and it is usually the woman that goes part-time/is more vulnerable after children come into the picture. I'm now a SAHM with a 2.5yr old and a baby on the way.

If I planned to be childfree then I probably wouldn't have been bothered either way.

All that said, I do not judge anyone that chooses not to get married before having children. People do what suits them best. I'm glad people can make choices based on their circumstances and wants without the worry of being stigmatised.

Nowadays marriage is to do with shared property rights

Half of children are born outside marriage. I had my first child while in a committed relationship but before marriage. We owned our house as joint tenants (so would pass to partner automatically on death), made a will leaving each other everything, made plans for our child’s care if we died, got life insurance, made sure we were named as each other’s beneficiary for death in service at work.

We married when our child was 5. We now have a second child too. Marriage invalidates a will so we should make a new one but if we die without a valid will the house is still joint tenants so would go to partner automatically, then the first 250k goes to spouse before anything further is split with 50% to spouse and the rest shared between kids.

I have a friend who has kids with her partner and they have been together for decades. She is not married and is not a joint owner of the house. I don’t know about their wills - but I suspect they haven’t got around to it. If her partner dies and they have no will her kids will inherit her partners property and anything else he has like savings. She will be screwed/homeless. It will be an utter mess.

I have children and I have never been married. I am even university educated!

I specifically chose then and still choose now NOT to be married to protect myself and my children.

I would not encourage my children to marry and if they wanted to I would be sure they knew about the implications for life in doing so, specifically financially. I wouldn’t be overly happy if they decided to marry and risk the inheritance I’d like to leave them, but I suppose it will be theirs to risk as I’d be dead.

I wanted my kids to be born in wedlock, but that is just my preference. Others can do as they see fit. I don´t know if my daughter´s friends´ parents are married or not, and don´t care. I would not use the adjective illegitimate as it is so old fashioned it´s laughable. And bastard is even worse. Only the "illegitimate" sons of kings could be "bastards". It wasn´t an insult. In Europe at least, it isnt a thing any more, in the rest of the world, yes, it can be a stigma.

It isnt the stigma in the UK that it used to be. Other countries, cultures/religions it may be frowned upon.
Many people seem to think that marriage is "just a piece of paper"
It isn't, it's a legal status and comes with its own protections x

We are both professionals, one high earning and one public sector so less so (!), Unmarried and no plans to do so.

The only very tiny thing we have noticed is that sometimes it would be more convenient for me to have the same surname as the kids and their dad. It would save approximately 30 seconds and one or two sentences at some appointments, that's about it. People do default to calling me Mrs DP sometimes and I just answer to that because why not?

But how would you even know if children parents are married or not?

i didnt change my name, i dont wear a wedding ring.

I am sure people assume we are not married but we are

I didn't think it mattered. Until I got pregnant out of wedlock (planned) I was suddenly overcome with shame and embarrassment and wanted a quicky wedding while pregnant. The only thing that stopped me was pregnancy complications meaning all else was set aside. Really surprised me especially as my family are very liberal and my mum had kids out of wedlock lol

Yes but with different names and no letter of consent border agencies can prevent travel if the accompanying adult has a different surname, even if no complaint has been made. Happens regardless of marriage of course, that point was really more of an aside regarding what I'd tell my daughter to do.

It does for the lower-earning partner, yes.

It's obviously not "just a piece of paper": it does confer legal protections but those protections are somewhat overstated and they in no way compensate for having your own income.

If you're a woman with your own money these days you're better off avoiding marriage. And obviously most men are better off avoiding it.

In general I think the case for marriage is massively exaggerated. Its a good insurance policy for a woman who wants to take a significant amount of time off to raise children. For two independently solvent people it's neutral to negative and it's a disaster if you're wealthy.

And the moral argument that it confers some superior status on your children is absolutely ridiculous.

I think being in a stable environment with both parents is more important than an actual certificate

No not at all. When I think of people my generation (38) who get married, they already have kids.