Permanently banned for ‘promoting hate’

[RumAndReisling]

Following ten years uneventful membership of a major social media site I have been permanently banned for ‘promoting hate’.

Never again will I be able to participate on that site.

My crime? Saying that if you had given birth to a child, there was no way you could literally change sex and produce semen to father one.

Is this not a statement of fact, or is this now unacceptable to say?

AIBU to say that my husband isn’t able to give birth?

Refusing to recognise such a person as a father is hurtful

Fortunately the UK Supreme Court decided that facts were more important than hurt feelings in this matter, and transmen continue to be recorded on their children's birth certificates as mothers, not fathers, and quite right too, given that they gave birth to the children concerned.

(Still waiting for someone to explain how it's living as a man to do one of the most female things imaginable, i.e. become pregnant and give birth.)

Gender identity is a protected characteristic. I don't see why you think you spouting conspiracy theories and hate is somehow OK. There are agreed terms of use, review them.

So if somebody who had previously been pregnant and given birth to a baby went to (for ease, let's call this person) 'her' GP and sought tests, assistance and treatment to enable her to father a child, as she was not producing any sperm and was thus (as a 'male') 'infertile' - would you really expect the GP and any other medical staff to seriously fully investigate why their patient was not producing sperm and what the solution would be to enable said patient to father a child?

Or would you denounce them as 'hateful conspiracy theorists' as well, if they kindly told the patient that she would never be able to do so, and that it was, in fact, categorically not as a result of any kind of problem or dysfunction with her body that was preventing this from being a possibility?

I disagree. If my friend told me they were now a man and wanted to be called Ronald, because they're my friend, I would do that. If I went to a dinner party and I was sat next to a trans person, I would call them by their preferred gender. That's just polite. It wouldn't stop me noticed what their sex really was. And it certainly doesnt mean that I wouldn't debate the issue that people can't change sex.
I respect all people until they do something to lose that respect. Wanting to live their life in a different way to me would not be reason enough to be disrespectful to them.

But Serafina we KNOW there are some posters who simply have no impulse control and must come and shame all other posters for their wrong think (according to them!)

I respect all people until they do something to lose that respect. Wanting to live their life in a different way to me would not be reason enough to be disrespectful to them

Expecting strangers to play along is extremely entitled and disrespectful dont you think?

However Sugar it should still be your choice which pronouns to use within your own speech. You can choose to 'be kind' or choose to use sex based pronouns.
There has been at least one case where a female victim was directed to refer to her male attacker as 'she' in court. Why should the attacker's feelings matter more than the victim?

You've given an example which does not work to prove hate but we're supposed to believe you know the motivation of everyone posting on the feminist board in defence of women's rights.

Most posts? I am familiar with the feminist boards and this is categorically not true. Unfortunately there are some men who say they are women who actually are paedophiles. A surprising number seem to find their inner woman after they have been arrested.

https://transcrimeuk.com/category/sexual-offences/possession-of-csa-images/

The reasons transwomen will be the subject of much discussion on a feminist board is because the acceptance of them as women in all areas of public life can both disadvantage and endanger women. Do you think we should be kind and not discuss these issues in case we hurt someone's feelings?

You have no idea what the OP said but you are quite sure she said something hateful, how? Plenty of people have been banned from social media for making quite innocuous remarks, I can easily believe she has been banned for simply stating facts. People have been taken to court for less.

I think you have committed to a belief in an ideology you do not fully understand but are willing to defend it anyway.

Say you went to a friend's party and she introduced you to a person called Mary. They seemed very friendly and courteous and it was clear they were biologically male, would you insist on knowing what their real name was and call them 'he'? Or would you address them as they'd like to be known?

I would call them by their preferred gender. That's just polite. It wouldn't stop me noticed what their sex really was.

So you would collude in a lie because you think it's 'polite'? I don't understand that at all I must say.

Why deny the evidence of your eyes and ears, material reality? Whose agenda does that ultimately serve?

Refusing to recognise such a person as a father is hurtful

If the person has actually given birth to the baby then the baby has a right to know who their mother is. We should not pander to adult wants at the expense of a child.

Gender identity is a protected characteristic

No it isn't.

Gender reassignment is protected. All that means is that you cannot be discriminated against compared with people who are not undergoing gender reassignment.

It does not give you the right to use single-sex spaces of the opposite sex, and it does not oblige anyone to pretend they believe you have changed sex.

If I knew someone who announced that she now identified as something I knew she wasn't, e.g. 20 years younger than her actual age, a different ethnicity, a person with a disability (all of which have happened in recent years), I would be unable to go along with that fantasy. Depending on the circumstances, I might be concerned about her mental health. I would regard a request to start referring to a female with male pronouns in the same light.

Change of name is a different matter. Lots of people change their names, for all sorts of reasons.

I would refrain from using their name or any pronouns at all tbh.

Someone else's identity is not my problem its their choice I don't ha e to play along.

A name is a name. Anyone can have any name.
And you wouldn't need to use he or she in that person's presence (remember the saying 'who's she, the cat's mother?)

But the pronouns is surely somewhat of a side issue. If people can't state basic biological facts like 'you can't change sexes' then we are in big trouble.

Out of good manners we would address the transman as 'he' because that's the polite thing to do and it doesn't do us any harm to be polite.

And people have different boundaries regarding indulging people in their gender identity beliefs.

Considering there have been male transitioners who have used exactly the fact that people 'use their preferred pronouns' to then convince policy makers to make policies that put women and girls into harmful situations, I disagree with 'it doesn't do us any harm'. There are other impacts from using preferred pronouns too.

But if you want the name of a male who has done this, Veronica Ivy said this to sports policy makers to allow Veronica Ivy and other males to compete in female sports categories. I cannot find it though amongst all the other things that Veronica Ivy has said. They may have said it when they were known as Rachel McKinnon though - they did change their name. If I remember correctly, that change happened after this male athlete declared anyone who disagrees that they are a woman should die in a grease fire.

Isn't this just what I said, though. People shouldn't be cancelled for having free speech. They shouldn't be cancelled for saying women can't become men; for using a pronoun a person doesn't like; for telling someone their cousin us slimmer and prettier; for saying there should be white history month.

That's the essence of free speech.
But if we have rights under free speech, we should also have responsibilities. So if we have the right to say someone is fat and ugly (and, as a fat and certainly not pretty person, I believe it shouldn't be against the law to do that), it also behooves us to have the responsibility to think through the consequences our words.

Debating that it's biologically impossible for a woman to become a man, doesnt mean that you have to be rude to transpeople you are introduced socially by telling them that.

Good for you if it doesn't bother you but you know it does hurt some women who would love to have children but it can't happen for them. I was with a friend when someone announced she wasn't a real woman because she couldn't have children and she was devastated.

You don't speak for all women who are infertile.

That's totally different!

Only women can have children, but not all women can have children.
You aren't less of a woman if you can't have children.

You can start your own site / platform if you're not happy with the current offerings and how they are run.

I respect your response but it doesn't address what I said.
I have been clear that under free speech, people should be able to use pronouns as they see fit. And so if you were debating the issue on a TV show, you might indeed use the pronoun appropriate to the biological sex.
However, that is separate from courtesy and good manners. There's a transformation in my local M&S. She was always,super helpful and pleasant. Why would I belittle her by calling her 'he' when she didn't want that? I 100% believe I have the right to, but just because you have the right, doesn't mean you have to exert them all the time.
Imagine your child had acne. I believe I have the right to say to them that they have acne. But I wouldn't do that. It doesn't change the situation and it's rude. On a personal level, I try to respect people's feelings.

Debating that it's biologically impossible for a woman to become a man, doesnt mean that you have to be rude to transpeople you are introduced socially by telling them that

Depends on your definition of rude I guess. Personally I find lying to someone's face,.indulging untruths and encouraging needy and narcissist behaviour thinking hou are " being kind" rude and unkind. As is expecting nom consenting strangers to participate in a delusion , gaslighting them in the process.

That's ruder than the truth can ever be tbh

On the contrary.

I am pointing out that there are indeed ramifications for this. Maybe that you were unaware of.

What part about people politely calling that male person 'she' and calling them a 'woman' have they have not attempted to leverage to change sport's policy to the detriment of any female athlete? How do you know who you are being polite to isn't going to attempt to leverage it in the same way for any other reason?

I do understand that you believe that people should be polite & respectful. I don't believe that it is respectful for any person to expect me to affirm their gender identity. They have not changed sex and pronouns are based on sex in the English language. Words have consequences.

It’s always worth it to state the truth.

But that can't be right. I agree when you're talking about a small FB group of friends or something like that. But not when you're talking about these large multi-national platforms. These platforms have grown themselves so they can be an important part of people's personal and working lives. Being barred from it might cause an individual disadvantage.
It's similar to the banks. They've created a situation where we can't live in society without banks. Therefore banks should not have the right to close accounts purely because your views might not align to those of the CEO's.
When these huge businesses decide to become part of the infrastructure of how society operates, I don't believe they have the right to bar people just because they express opinions contrary to those of the site owner or operator.

Good for you if it doesn't bother you but you know it does hurt some women who would love to have children but it can't happen for them. I was with a friend when someone announced she wasn't a real woman because she couldn't have children and she was devastated

I also have fertility issues and The very fact that a woman has fertility problems and has trouble conceiving or can't conceive a child proves that she's a real woman. No Doctor is in the least bit concerned when a man, of any age, is unable to get pregnant because biology dictates that they cannot under any circumstances become pregnant, but if a pre-menopausal woman is unable to conceive in spite of trying then yes there is a problem and a Doctor may refer for further investigation and treatment because she's a woman and women are the only one of the two sexes who can become pregnant.