To ask if parents of secondary school students are aware…

[Curtainsblue]

I’ve seen some posts about the impact of lack of teachers on primary schools and also some discussion about impact on exam classes, but I wonder if parents of KS3 students are fully aware of the situation schools are currently in.

My friend is a science teacher in an oversubscribed, high achieving comprehensive school and has told me that from September around a third of KS3 science lessons will be being taught/supervised by cover teachers.

Maths are losing curriculum time (so fewer lessons every week) in KS3 as there simply aren’t the staff to teach them. He’s said this is a common picture throughout local schools, with maths and science departments in particular being impacted- he knows of 1 school in the areas that are fully staffed in these subjects.

A colleague of his at a different school has said they are preparing for it to become common place for students to be in ‘super-cover’ classes, where if there are staff absences, students will be sitting in exam style venues in groups of 60-90 working silently and independently while being supervised by a senior member of staff.

This isn’t being communicated to parents. I spoke to a teacher at my sons school and she said she doesn’t know what’s happening there yet but they are also incredibly understaffed from September.

Are you aware of staffing levels at your children’s secondary school and how this is going to impact them?

I'm more concerned at the lack of children being encouraged to join a trade. One of the biggest mistakes this country ever made with our education system was to being in the comprehensive system.

Sorry to be the voice of doom, but don't count on it.

I feel this is an important thread, OP.

For a long time, as a single parent with an academically gifted child - I supported them in the absence of a teacher often, and at the time I really didn't have the space to think of the general situation I just got on with it, not having space to turn around really...

It was quite a while before i realised that the situation was the same across the board, across the country, and it is a systemic problem.

From early years to places at uni - for those of us who remember Tony Blair's mantra 'education, education, education'...not that I agreed with everything he did, but on the radio recently a senior figure in the NHS - was talking about young children's health and creating health 'hubs' for schools...due to obesity, malnutrition, mental health issues etc.

...the senior figure basically said that the newly created hubs - were very similar to the Sure Start centres that used to exist...

So poilcy failures...do away with something that worked....and now it needs to be brought back and the challenges are bigger than they were before...

Not rocket science to see, know and feel that the fundamental tenets of Tory thinking do not work.

There ARE vulnerable people in society - young kids, elderly people, people with chronic conditions - all of these groups and more need an infrastructure to suppor them. All of us can make a contribution to society - and all of us are human beings.

Not simply machines to make a profit. The housing market, I won't start...without stable accomodation itis difficult for people to find work and many are so worried about the bills...which has a knock on effect on their families...which has a knock on effect on their schooling...which has a knock on effect....on health which has a knock on effect on culture which has a knock on effect on manufacturing...which has a knock on effect...

I was in senior school, 40 to 35 years ago and it was not like that. I was in a shit low achievement school but we had consistent teachers throughout and only cover teachers very short term to cover sickness.

I think it’s fair to say in those 4 decades it’s political decisions that have ruined teaching as a career and hence state education.

We need to push for school reform. If a child can be trusted at 13 to know they want to go to university then trust them to know they want to fix cars or be a plumber for a living and educate accordingly. You'd free up so much teaching time that way and resolve your behavioural issues too.

I work in a lovely school, really large, did well out of the school funding changes so relatively well funded compared to many, largely middle class catchment, before covid very few behaviour issues, supportive SLT. We are really struggling to recruit, with have science classes that are covered constantly because we haven't been able to replace a staff member, we had similar with tech last term, GCSE classes without a regular teacher, we've been recruiting internationally for years and years now. My kids go to a similar 'good' school and my daugher in year 10 now has had so many teachers, so much staff turnover, this year she's had 3 spanish teachers, 2 RE teachers, 3 food tech teachers and her maths teacher and RE teacher are both leaving at the end of the year and her English teacher has said they are likely to have some cover as they are likely to be down a teacher in September. I've worked in schools that have been judged requires improvement in poor areas and it's much harder work than the school I'm in now, and you're earning the same money, getting no extra thanks, I imagine recruitment is incredibly tough in these places.

Yes, this is the reality. There have always been shit schools but back in the day, those shit schools at least had subject teachers. Now being in a shit school means that you take GCSE Maths without having ever been taught Maths by a specialist teacher.

Yes, it kind of amazes me, the people that voted Tory - in the last election and before that.

The word 'policy' means an intention or a goal. Many didn't bother to read the policies - if they had spent some time with it they would have realised exactly what they were voting for...which is what they got.

But then it suits certain right wing politicians when people do not THINK at all.

So no surprises that they whittle away an education system where people might be encouraged to do so...especially people on a low income.

They just want us to be canon fodder.

I believe it was unusual, even at my school. I recall one teacher fell off a ladder and broke his back, another went off long term such due to her divorce (she couldn’t stop crying in lessons), another tragically lost his wife and child in a car accident. Several left for other roles and they couldn’t find replacements.

Maybe we were more self engaged in learning than kids now because I didn’t get below a B for any of them.

Interesting.
Are you saying that the Grammar/ Secondary Modern system was better for society than the comprehensive system?
I like your idea of the distinction being made at 13 instead of 11 years old.

Our DD is in Y9 at a London single-sex secondary. It's been really grim this year with supply staff regularly taking maths and science and we're expecting it to be worse next term. But we don't need the school to tell us how bad it is – we know from what our DD tells us and there's a nationwide recruitment crisis that's been widely reported on for the last few years that no school is immune from. If some parents need that spelling out, they are probably not the kind of parents who are engaged with their children's education anyway.

There’s a noticeable absence of critical thinking in the (English) curriculum from what I’ve seen. I’m teaching DD to question everything.

People saying 'it's not a new thing' ain't seen nothing yet.

Teacher vacancies double what they were a couple of years ago. Government is projected to only meet half of its recruitment target for trainee secondary teachers for September and that's even with massively over-recruiting PE trainees that they hope will then teach other subjects like maths.

This September is going to be awful, with so many classes without teachers. Next September is going to be even worse due to the lack of trainees this year. The whole thing is falling apart.

Even before I had a child one of the high achieving schools in my area put adverts outside the school stating they needed a science teacher.

I probably noticed because for over 30 years I've known people who were science teachers who left teaching including my own GCSE physics teacher.

DS1 year 11 maths class was being supervised by the librarian back in 2019 for a while. This at an outstanding high achieving state school.

I wonder if any of the posters who kept telling teachers throughout the Covid era to "leave if you don't like it," will enter the thread?

Well you aren't going to employ people with a degree in maths and computing especially on a teachers salary are you? A lot of jobs in the sciences aren't overly well paid but people who study science are more likely to be passionate about them than teaching let's be real. I'm not saying teaching isn't a noble and rewarding career- well, it should be anyway, it is one of the most vital roles in a civilised society after all; but with the state schools are in its not surprising at all that there are chronic shortages.

It would be nice if the parents also realised that there are many reasons why teachers are leaving Pay is one of them but poor behaviour is another. Parent your children and teach them manners and respect.

It's been a crappy year for ds2 (y9) with substitute teachers. Meanwhile ds1 (y11) has had a clear run with experienced and permanent teachers. So I have some hope that things will improve as he goes into y10.

Meanwhile, we found an English tutor to help him as this was the hardest hit subject and the one he was beginning to lose confidence in.

Both my children are in (a very high achieving) secondary and they do seem to be talking about cover teachers frequently, although unsurprisingly the school have not made parents aware. It’s a bit worrying, yes, as often they end up watching David Attenborough in science or something 😬.

DS is now between his second and third years at university, but this was going on when he was at school. Especially in year 8. Schools seem to prioritise Y7 and the exam years, and Y9 was an improvement in Y8, but Y8 was one long year of supply and cover teachers.

We live in an affluent area so I guess house prices don't help even if a school is reasonably attractive to recruits (and the downside of affluent is entitled parents).

Yes, it's been obvious that things are being cut over recent years. The school is also quite open with parents that they are doing various things to save money.

And, the teachers themselves have discussed reasons behind why they ae striking with the DCs - which I think is really positive.

Or indeed those who said that parents were lazy/lacking moral fibre for not teaching their own kids.

We do need teachers and schools after all. Well who'd have guessed it.

@Inkpotlover I should probably start engaging with my children’s education then 👍 thanks for the tip. TBH I’m barely aware their even at school.

Something parents need to understand is the current crisis all started with the "satisfactory isn't good enough" drive of Michael Gove in 2011-12.

Before that, your children were taught by satisfactory teachers who maybe weren't earth shatteringly top notch but were good enough at their jobs and generally working towards better practice.
Based on the slogan that "satisfactory isn't good enough", headteachers started recruiting exclusively for outstanding teachers. Satisfactory became "requires improvement".

Teachers with subject knowledge and a decent enough ability to teach were forced out of their jobs by being put on unachievable "improvement plans" and the decision about whether a teacher was "good enough" or not was utterly subjective and depended heavily on workplace politics and how good you were at playing the game, as well as what classes you were given. If they wanted you to win, you got observed with your top set GCSE class. If they wanted you out, you got observed with the second-from-bottom set (because it was full and a lot of the kids had the same issues as the bottom set and none of the extra help they needed from the school).

These teachers would have happily taught your children for decades to come but there was no one to replace them and there weren't enough "outstanding" teachers (and yet there are still a huge number of job adverts requesting them and actively not considering non-outstanding teachers) so now instead of a "satisfactory" teacher with subject knowledge whose classroom manner needed a bit of a tweak, you get a teaching assistant or cover supervisor who isn't graded at all and doesn't have subject knowledge, teaching an amalgam of classes at the same time, whose main focus is crowd control and getting through the day.

To solve this problem we need to reframe how we view teachers because I really believe a satisfactory teacher was far better for the children than no teacher at all.

Add to this we need to overhaul the job application process and make it so you're not filling out a 30-60 page application form (or two separate forms if you're applying to a Catholic school) and so it's not so heavily dependent on references and whether the headteacher thinks well of your former school or not. Blind recruitment and simpler application forms would go a long way. If I can apply for a £30k office job with a quick click sending them my CV and a cover letter, why would I apply for a £26k teaching job?

The ECT (which used to be NQT) being 2 years long is also ridiculous. We don't need to drag out the period of extra work and scrutiny for teachers where they can't change jobs to another school or get their ECT done on long term supply unless they start in September, we need to let them get on with the job they were employed to do. They also don't let you work as a supply teacher for very long if you don't complete this ECT so good teachers who didn't get a job quick enough literally cannot be employed as teachers even if they want to.

Similar things have happened with nursing with basically an identical result.