Not to send my children to private school even though I can afford it

[AdamRyan]

I believe in comprehensive education and think children should all be educated together, to improve social mobility and prevent a "brain drain" where less privileged children go to some schools, and more privileged go to others.
Am I in the minority and being naive?

YANBU - comprehensive schools are the way to go
YABU - I'd send my children private if I could

I don't think £1.5bn to the exchequer is marginal given the current state of the country

Things have moved on vastly in Education in the last 10 years. Citing anything from 2015 will be grossly out of date especially if it is drawing on earlier data.

@Xenia -would you have been able to afford 5 sets of fees and a house where you live in today’’s climate? Would you have earned enough? Things have again, moved on massively in this regard.

None of this should be about morals/chips on shoulders etc but about pure revenue and what makes sense for the country as a whole. How reliant are we really on higher rate/additional rate PAYE persons coming in and contributing during their working lives far more than most? How much do those persons use private education? How will we remain attractive going forward etc? It is already an imploding state of affairs in this country. Attacking private schools only makes sense if there is an absolute huge parallel investment of quality of education in the state sector from infancy to 18. Otherwise the race to the bottom we have embarked on since Brexit continues.

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-8513/

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/sep/16/tax-lost-in-uk-amounts-to-35bn-almost-half-say-campaigners-due-to

If we need taxes, there is lots of other stuff we need to do first!

Believe me when I say, I have no interest in the ethos of private schools- winner takes it all concept but their amenities, resources and equipment is obviously preferable. There is no contradiction there it is as clear as day, the culture of private schools is toxic and not something many would want emulated in state schools. I don't understand why so many people on this thread have a hard time understanding that state school parents' genuinely don't believe in the privileges private school has a matter of principle. My DD was sad she wasn't going with her best friend to private school and was begging for us to try and make it happen (not helped by the friend's Mum's encouragement with talk of tiny bursaries and scholarships) but now, almost at the end of the year 7 she has told me that she is so pleased she didn't get to go as the lack of modesty on the group chats is cringeworthy, the long days, the getting up for a 6.45 am bus. The academic pressure already. It definitely would not have suited my free spirit, arty/musical DD. DS is academic and will do well with minimal effort anyway. It is highly likely he will not get above a 5 for Spanish but then the core subjects he is exemplary in. I think you should encourage your children to achieve what they can but at the end of the day it is his life and he needs to put the effort in himself, if the interest or passion is not there for the subjects for A levels what's the point! When we visited the 6th form college open day, the politics student explained to us that she had an offer from Cambridge and she did have some 6s for GCSES, she encouraged DS to think about the prospect. However, my family whose children attend private school were shocked by this offer as it straight 7s 8s/9s resit anything below a 7 to access the RG institutions. I would rather the less pressurised culture at DS's 6th form college but I do appreciate that is a choice.

What you think should be the sequencing depends on your own priorities and political views. When many middle class families are being squeezed and having benefits removed from them, it seems crazy to me to leave a system of perks targeted at the wealthy because "there are other priorities".

When you are looking at longitudinal studies of the impacts of education on people's life chances, 2015 really isn't long ago. Is this "people have had enough of experts" in another guise?

How depressing, no, not everything or everyone in life truly believes it is all about 'revenue'. Equally, having principles or a discussion on ethics is not having a chip on your shoulder!

Sure. It’s covered here:
https://www.buckingham.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/HEFCE-blunder.pdf

https://www.timeshighereducation.com/blog/state-schools-versus-private-schools-hefce-sets-record-straight

I took a look at the actual study the first article references. It’s based on the erroneous figures initially published by the HEFCE:
https://pure.manchester.ac.uk/ws/files/57255363/2017_06_Contextualising_Degree_Level_Achievement_corrected.docx

I’m not talking about the ethos of private schools, I’m talking about the contradictory narratives of the critics. The level of inconsistency is frankly absurd, and as such it’s hard to take such arguments seriously.

If you read the paper, they discuss the HEFCE research in the introduction but that's not the data they used.

Our data was obtained from the University’s student records and combined with other Widening Participation (WP) and student finance datasets.

Nice try

I have wealthy relatives as does DH that send their children to private school, DH works with quite a few private school educated pupils.

Goldenbear so what happens at family get togethers? Do you lecture those who’ve opted for private school on their appalling morals and lack of principles?
Do they beat a hasty retreat when they see you coming?

“What you think should be the sequencing depends on your own priorities and political views. When many middle class families are being squeezed and having benefits removed from them, it seems crazy to me to leave a system of perks targeted at the wealthy because "there are other priorities".

It isn’t a system of perks. Someone paying school fees typically has already paid PAYE at the high rate or additional rate and is not using the state system at the same time, saving the government 4500-7500 per child per year.

It will be just another form of squeezing professional working women primarily who rely on private schools to offer sports clubs etc so they can work on long hours. And lots of families who choose private because their DC cannot cope in mainstream.
If you want to tax the properly wealthy, you need wealth tax but that is expensive to administer. And you certainly need to crack down on tax evasion and tax fraud - which is a huge problem in the UK. However, obviously it is easier to make an institution account for VAT through a hate policy which will backfire.

“Is this "people have had enough of experts" in another guise?” That is the cheapest shot yet. OP you profess to be very well educated but argue incredibly poorly.

Private schools use their charitable status to avoid paying the tax they would if they registered as a business. Those are perks for charities.

Professional working women from all walks of life have to pay for childcare. Why should those who use private schools be subsidised in a way the rest of us aren't?

Now now, add the context. It isn’t mentioned merely in the introduction, it is referenced throughout the paper. One mention: “The HEFCE (2014) study was the largest of its kind, looking at the achievements of an entire cohort of UK students.”,
whereas this particular study is focused on one university. At best you are pointing to one chapter and calling it the whole story.

Now, it may be that those educated at state schools have greater levels of success at Manchester University compared to their privately educated counterparts (if indeed they didn’t use figures provided by the HEFCE), but that would in fact make it an anomaly. That is, an exception to the rule.

Nice try yourself 🫠

I don't think you understand research papers.
The introduction sets out the broader context, and previous research. The data and methodology section explains what this studies did and how, the results and conclusion sets out the findings and how they much they agree or disagree with the existing body of knowledge.

The HEFCE issue does not impact the findings of this study.

Now, rather than insult me why don't you go and find some academic papers to back up your hypothesis that public school students achieve better degrees when A level results are controlled for?

I love reading people's "gotcha" links
From the HEFCE blunder paper:

While HEFCE has changed the figures in its report, it has not altered in paragraphs 19 and 76 the statement that students from state schools were four percentage points more likely to be awarded a first or upper-second class degree. The Executive Summary (paragraphs 17-19) in the original version read:
^In 2013-14, 82 per cent of state school graduates gained a first or upper second
class degree compared with 73 per cent of independent school graduates….Of the
observed nine point difference, only five points are explained by the model,
leaving four percentage points unexplained.^
This has been changed to:
^In 2013-14, 73 per cent of state school graduates gained a first or upper second
class degree compared with 82 per cent of independent school graduates….The
observed nine percentage point difference is more than explained by other factors (such as the different distribution of A-level achievement) which results in an unexplained four percentage points advantage to state school students.^

So although HEFCE admitted the error and updated their research, it didn't change their overall conclusion - thar state school students have an advantage in degree outcomes.

Not quite what you alleged upthread.

Are you even reading what I’m linking to?

“On A levels below straight ‘A’s state school students were above by three percentage points. But taking into account all the entry qualifications and proportions achieving them, students from independent schools were nine percentage points to the good”

Yes I am reading it. Are you? 😂
Upthread you said the research saying state school children did better was due to a transposition error and not real.
I've given you evidence that's not the case (papers with different data found the same effect; HEFCE updated their own paper in light of the data but didn't change their conclusion).
You are scrabbling about trying to desperately to find evidence that the research is wrong. Doesn't alter the fact that your "mic drop" upthread was in fact bollocks.

I haven't read the whole thread, I'm afraid - it's long! I can imagine there are lots of people defending private schools. But I voted YANBU. I can absolutely see why people would want to send their children to private schools. I agree there is a crisis in state education (and in the state sector generally) caused by chronic underfunding. I think everyone just wants to do the best for their children in that context. And frankly, some people - quite a lot actually - are snobs and don't want their children to go to school with children from disadvantaged backgrounds.

I'm not in a position to send my children to private school. DH is a high earner but I'm not. We live in a city where housing is very expensive and we want a bigger house (so we'll be increasing our mortgage to extend or move). If we lived somewhere cheaper we may be able to afford it, but I don't want to. I obviously want to do the best for my children and their education, but in my opinion that's finding a good state secondary school for them. This does mean that we'll have to move into the right catchment area for the school we want (oldest DC is 6 so we have a bit of time!) I guess that's what the vast majority of middle class people do if they can't afford or don't want to send their kids to private school. But I think that even if we did have enough money for private, I would prefer not to spend it on that and to use or save it for other things.

The only scenario in which I would consider private would be to provide something very specific that state school can't eg bilingual/multilingual school (we're a bilingual family) or a school with excellent provision for a specific disability or special educational need, if we were struggling to get DC's needs met in the state sector. However, I still prefer state school and supplementing privately (eg tutor/Saturday school in the other language, paying for additional SEND support, etc).

Dude, I’m not the one scrabbling here. I’ve given you the breakdown, whether you want to believe it or not is up to you 🤷🏻‍♀️

And what ‘mic drop’ moment? It’s a thread on fucking mumsnet, it’s really not that important. You provided anecdotes, but ultimately the provides the overview is provided by the figures which do not support your assertions.

The HEFCE study was by far the largest one of its kind, hence why I am referring to it over others. The figures were initially incorrect, and although they did (quietly) correct them, they didn’t change the conclusions. Okay, cool, but once you examine the data it becomes clear that, and I quote again: “on A levels below straight ‘A’s state school students were above by three percentage points. But taking into account all the entry qualifications and proportions achieving them, students from independent schools were nine percentage points to the good”

Accept it or don’t accept it, it makes no difference to me.

“Private schools use their charitable status to avoid paying the tax they would if they registered as a business. Those are perks for charities.

Professional working women from all walks of life have to pay for childcare. Why should those who use private schools be subsidised in a way the rest of us aren't?”

Childcare supply is exempt from VAT. Do you want nurseries to start charging VAT? Nurseries run for profit pay tax on their profits but can also set off losses.

Some private schools are not registered charities and do make a profit which they are taxed on. Those that are registered as charities have to meet the legal requirements and cannot make a profit - any profit has to be poured back into the schools.

There are plenty of registered charities in the UK which have a charitable purpose that I do not agree with morally. That is not the point. My personal opinion is irrelevant. Why would my opinion matter?

These threads are always full of jealous people who don’t want other people’s kids having an advantage over their own kids. You do you and let other people make their own choices. People paying lots of taxes and paying for education on top are really not a problem for society at large. Leave them alone. People who don’t value education, commit crimes, deal drugs, neglect their kids - they are a problem.

I don’t pay for private schools for my DC but I am perfectly happy for other people to do so. I am also happy there are also still some people studying Modern Languages, Classics the many courses which won’t be run widely in the future if we do away with private schools.

I morally object to any attack on aspiration. It is ludicrous. We need hardworking, ambitious people who want to push their kids. I personally respect people more who pay for school fees over fancy holidays, cars etc.

If anything, this is yet another Brexit hate policy, inward looking, hatred and jealousy of aspirational people who work hard and can afford to spend 15-20k on their child/children. As the spend goes into education and creation of jobs in a school community and actually keeps things in the country and produces a future educated workforce, I do not have a problem with it. What is more is that it would be atypical internationally to do this kind of thing and it will attract less highly skilled workers from abroad which we do currently need.

I am all for making state education better though. However, that is an entirely separate matter.

I accept the data but not the conclusion
Again you are showing your inability to understand research and cherry pick to suit your position.

So here are the whole of that papers conclusions and I've highlighted what I think is most relevant.

At the heart of the confusion about the relative university performance of students from state and independent schools is the range of qualifications considered and whether the distribution of the students across the qualifications is taken into account. If the comparison is limited to A-levels without bringing in the student distributions then those from state schools can be shown to be somewhat ahead. [I think this is relevant because most state schools only offer A levels, as discussed upthread]But if all entry qualifications and the proportions of students achieving them are taken into account then a much higher percentage of those from independent schools are awarded good degrees.

20. The reports of the superiority of students from state schools have attracted so much attention because they fits in with the widening access agenda. Successive governments have attempted to drive, through HEFCE and the Office for Fair Access (OFFA), a more diverse intake into higher education. An aspect of this is increasing the proportion of students from state schools. The apparently better performance of state school pupils
    has led to callsfor them to be admitted on lower A-level grades. This seems plausible,but as this analysis has shown it is a relatively small difference [how do you make a fair test if you write off comparisons as "too small" even if the original report found this statistically significant], in the case of the 2013-14 graduates, amounting to 2,200 out of the 197,350 from state schools.

21. While it is highly likely that there are state school applicants to universities whose Alevels do not fully reflect their abilities because they have been to a poor school or for some other reason, there is no basis for a general rule. If there were some means of identifying potential for higher education that was superior to A-level performance,
    selection could be made more systematic.

22. But two major attempts to construct such a measure – one by the then Committee of Vice Chancellors and Principals4in the late 1960s and early 1970s, and, more recently,
    by the Sutton Trust5- have failed. They both concluded that their instruments were poorer predictors of university performance than A-levels themselves. As it is, it has to be left to the judgement of universities, which have always looked at candidates in the round. Admissions tutors deal with real people not statistical constructs.

23. It will be hard to change the preconceptions of those who want to believe that state schools do better. But the evidence is that they are only ahead at some A-level grades, and this is often when there are few independent school students in the comparison. [This gets to the heart of the motivation of this whole paper. The author is trying to disprove the data because he is against the ideology, not because he thinks the data is wrong]. Among the 2013-14 graduates, the three percentage point advantage on the A-level
    grades has to be set against the overall nine percentage points lead of those from independent schools.

If anything, this is yet another Brexit hate policy

Eh? Do you mean a policy by people who hate brexit or a policy of hate by people who love brexit?

we appear to be getting to the point in the thread where the pro-Conservative posters desperately fill the pages with weirdness to run the thread down and get it full before people notice the absolute nonsense being posted

You aren’t required to accept it. I’m not interested in getting into a pissing match with you, and it makes no difference to me whether you accept it or not. The conclusions are clear.

If you believe then that those educated in the state sector are in fact at an advantage though, then why the issue with private schools?

@AdamRyan - Brexit was a hate policy against Eastern European immigrants primarily who actually substantially contributed to our economy and did a lot of the jobs many people do not want to do (in sectors such as care, fruit picking, hotels, restaurants etc)

Taxing private schools is going to be a hate policy against hardworking PAYE paying middle class people primarily. How dare anyone earn proper money and succeed in this country anymore? How dare anyone work 18 hour days and earn 300000 and live in London?

And no, I am not a Conservative voter, but yes I sit left leaning, centrally.

I really do not want to punish anyone who works hard and is successful. That is simply damn stupid. Especially if they are already paying a ton of tax. Your real issue in this country now is that it does not pay to work extra hours due to high taxation. Many people make these choices every day and it is leading to low productivity across the board.

Especially when we are not taking the Uber rich, many criminals, tax evaders etc That alleged 1.5 billion is peanuts and bullshit.
Education is on its knees post Covid and this is just a dumb distraction strategy of hate. There are far more urgent issues facing children today than taxing private schools. I only picked up on some of them, like the vaping epidemic, NHS failing SEN children etc etc The whole policy itself is utter bullshit and Keir Starmer knows it.

Anyone with half a brain knows this too. Anyone with half a brain also knows that universities have already gone quite far with dealing with the previous private school bias. However, even there, there is a massive hypocrisy because universities are so underfunded they have to sell most their places to foreign fee paying students.

Productivity, education, health, politics are all very linked. One thing that does attract highly skilled foreign workers in both NHS, tech, banking, international business etc is the private school system. These people won’t come as much anymore except where they have no choice. And those private schools that are successful and super rich- they won’t care. They will still fill their places with the kids of the international rich anyway. It isn’t going to lead to anything good in the country so what is the point? It will affect UK Education Brand as a whole which is a massive money spinner for the UK, a bit like the Royal Family. Why mess with it? Surely we should have learnt our lesson now post Brexit… the worst policy of all times!