Not to send my children to private school even though I can afford it

[AdamRyan]

I believe in comprehensive education and think children should all be educated together, to improve social mobility and prevent a "brain drain" where less privileged children go to some schools, and more privileged go to others.
Am I in the minority and being naive?

YANBU - comprehensive schools are the way to go
YABU - I'd send my children private if I could

No, you simply agreed with someone else saying they were.

😂😂😂 fucking hell “I didn’t specifically type it, I just agreed with it! That makes all the difference!”

if you are coasting academically there seems no acceptance of that being your potential.

‘Coasting’ isn’t your potential though, it’s coasting. So if a school encourages a child to reach their potential, rather than coast, that’s a good thing in my book.

All schools should be doing this, not sure this would specially be a criticism levelled at private schools, I think you’re just grabbing at straws at this point.

The academic private schools where most of those who can afford feeds cannot get their children in as the child's IQ is not high enough, certainly do not need bursaries to keep up the results (Adam's point above). Some not so academic private schools might well find it useful however.

Also dividing by boys and girls - I paid school fees in my case so as to have single sex education to age 18. I am sure some of my sons' friends' parents picked their all boys schools because in their religion / culture there is no s ex before marriage and there is less chance of that in an all boys school. Girls tend to mean higher exam results as they work harder as teenagers so plenty of private schools have let girls into the sixth form to help with grades I expect. However it is a complex issue as plenty of private school parents want all children at the same school as it is easier so there are fewer and fewer single sex schools like the 2 SE Haberdashers, North London Collegiate, Merchant Taylors etc., the 2 St pauls etc

I am a capitalist and Tory voter (who as a woman has funded 5 sets of day school and university fees for my 5) and have no problems at all with parents being able to pay to ensure their children have the education the parents want.

Interesting point re split sexes. Some schools round here operate the diamond structure, but have been quietly warning parents about the threat of trans rights potentially causing issues to this in the future…

DH and I were both privately educated but would not send DC to private schools. Fortunately neither of us earns enough to test our principles.

However. We do live in a naice area but are not in catchment for any local secondary schools. The only ones DS might get into will take an hour on public transport and do not have good results/reputations. So now he is taking a couple of exams for state selectives. I do feel torn about this but it is a tricky one. Those posters who say that if you are morally opposed to private schools, you must be consistent to the point of being happy with schools in special measures aren't wrong if it's just a question of personal values affecting ourselves, but this is our children on whose behalf we are making decisions. Of course we are going to want to stick to our principles as much as possible, but we also have to make good decisions for our children so yes, there ends up being a limit.

If it was something I believed in morally that did not benefit me personally, I would stand firm on that and take the disadvantage. For my children... it's harder and I accept criticism on this as I do not think it is a perfect positive to hold; however, I believe it is still possible to hold this position and be opposed to the private school system as a whole.

Well some kids are coasting for a reason so that is the perception but maybe they have a SEN. I know a child that has gone to private school and fits this bill, the school would only admit them if the parents paid extra to accommodate this. It looks like now they might ask her to leave as throwing money at the issue has not worked. I think this has done more damage than it has good. Due to grade pressure I don't think this approach is unusual in a private school setting.

Getting children to reach their potential is one thing but not at any cost to their mental health.

‘Coasting’ isn’t your potential though, it’s coasting. So if a school encourages a child to reach their potential, rather than coast, that’s a good thing in my book
I agree. I'd expect any school my DC attend to encourage them to reach their potential and not be coasting.

I wouldn't care if that meant they took a subject they enjoyed but weren't a natural in and scraped a 5, or they got a 9 in a subject they're excelling in, but I'd want them to have the opportunity to do their best in their subjects.

Coasting is a problem in any school, regardless of fee status.

Not having a coasting mindset is very different to hot housing. I don't hot house any of my students, but I also strive to challenge them and encourage them to see their potential, and give them a nudge if they're coasting because that's my job. I can't do the work for them, but my students deserve a teacher who notices them and believes in them. I want the same for my DC.

I went to a uni with a very high proportion of private school pupils and a lot of them really struggled to motivate themselves and direct their own learning without the school structure around them. So they got low degrees compared to their A levels.

That structure is what I mean by "spoon feeding".

The schools may of course have got better at preparing their students for learning independently since I finished. It was a while ago.

Again the failure to distinguish between scholarships and bursaries. It doesn’t matter how many times you explain things to some people. It just doesn’t sink in.

So if they’re leaving with low degrees, in your opinion, how do they end up advantaged? You’ve just confounded your own argument.

Ability to do internships paid by parents. The cachet of the school on the CV. Access to the alumni network and broader networking.
Basically what parents are actually paying for and why this system is a barrier to social mobility.

I have award winning teachers in my close family. I couldn't do the job myself but they are absolutely dedicated and want the best for all to their pupils. They have never worked in private education and never would. I know some schools are failing and aren't supportive of children with special needs but I feel that might happen in private as well, OP.

Ooh look there is actually some research that agrees with me

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/education/2015/nov/05/top-state-school-pupils-get-better-degrees-than-those-from-private-schools

Zoopernoodle
Like your friends/family, I've never worked in private and never will. That's a principle decision and I'm fortunate not to be in a position where the options are private or no job.

I'm also unlikely to ever have the funds to send my DC private.

But I also know that if my DC were in positions I've known other children be in, or I had the state offer of some people in my area and then I can't honestly rule out sending them private if I magically had the money. I couldn't look at my children and send them to schools that I know we're offering a poor curriculum, that had a lot of pastoral issues, where I've heard first hand what goes on in the schools if I had the means to offer them a safe school where they can learn and thrive.

It's very easy to stand on soapboxes and claim it's all about principle if we're in a position to have many acceptable options

It is the micro management in the school years that is a disservice to the children. Equally, when you go to university following time at a private school for those with supposedly the highest IQs, you realise that your fellow peers only had the highest IQs in a group of people whose parents could afford for them to go to these fee paying schools i.e not the cleverest people in the world after all! That realisation is certainly challenging for those students and they have to learn to manage their own motivation, something those who have very high IQs at state school have undoubtedly more of an understanding of.

So what’s the problem then? Let the silly parents throw their silly money at private schools. Why get your arse in an uproar about it?

Where I live we have the lottery allocation system so we don't have these 'acceptable options' you keep referencing. Equally, why are you thinking in such extremes most state schools are not 'sink' schools and yes of course they have middle class children attending them. I have a very good insight in to private school life and I really, really know that it is not something I'd ever want for my DC.

It is the privileged experiences along the way though, way before university, the richest in society reaping even more benefits with charitable status, business rate rebates, tax breaks, it is the principle of this being not right. Some have an issue with this, most on here don't as the whole thread has obviously attracted parents who pay for their child's education.

Ah, so we’re using anecdata. If that’s what we’re doing then I know many private school alumni who achieved firsts and secured employment in lucrative and prestigious companies. I did the same. Conversely, I also observed students from state schools who couldn’t adapt to university and left either within or following the first year.

If we’re looking at statistics, which do provide a more helpful overview, then we can look at a study carried out in 2013, conducted by the HEFCE, which found:

“Out of a starting cohort of 24,360 candidates having attended a private school and 184,580 having attended a state school, 64.9 per cent of the former attained a first or upper second class degree, compared to 52.7 per cent of the latter.”

In 2015 it was reported that, based on 2013/14 figures that 82 per cent of state school pupils got firsts or upper seconds compared with 73 per cent of those from private schools. You may remember this in the press because it was reported on widely. However, it turns out that the HEFCE had made a transposition error, and actually 73 per cent of state school graduates gained a first or upper second class degree compared with 82 per cent from the private sector. This correction, funnily enough, didn’t make the same headlines.

I don’t see why any of that matters if no unfair advantage is produced - and according to you, it isn’t. There’s lots of services not subject to VAT, things that are charities that some people think shouldn’t be. Why get in a tizz about this? It’s pretty marginal at the end of the day, isn’t it?

Where I live we have the lottery allocation system so we don't have these 'acceptable options' you keep referencing. Equally, why are you thinking in such extremes most state schools are not 'sink' schools and yes of course they have middle class children attending them. I have a very good insight in to private school life and I really, really know that it is not something I'd ever want for my DC.
I've not said most state schools are sink schools.

Like I've said probably half a dozen times now, I've seen the excellent, the good, the bad and the ugly in the sector and have worked across a range of catchments.

A school doesn't have to be a sink school to have issues that affect children's experiences and education in a negative way.

You only have to look on a number of threads on here to find parents who are finding it incredibly difficult for their children to have the required adjustments put in place for their child's SEN, or where bullying hasn't been dealt with effectively, or where their child is falling behind because they've not had a stable teacher for a long period of time. Then there's having a child has allocated to a school that is more bothered about flattening the grass than supporting children who don't fit in a neat box. Or the parents who are really struggling because their child has emotionally based school avoidance because they are really unhappy in their current school and when they're asking for help they're told the wait list is huge. Or the children who want to do well, but find that because they're low prior attaining they're in a set with other students who want to misbehave and it means those who really need some additional attention can't access it, but it's ok because the other classes will probably keep the school's Progress 8 score high enough not to draw attention to it. And there's the very bright children who need to be stretched but because they're probably going to get 7s and 8s and keep the spreadsheet looking good, they'll be largely ignored in most of their subjects.

Will there be children in all those schools who thrive still? Of course.

Will there be children in all those schools who do well but their parents have also spent money on tutoring to plug the gaps from the issues in the schools? Of course (and the bonus here is then the school results look great too on paper)

Will there be children who do ok but probably don't reach their potential? Of course.

Will there be children in those schools who are let down and suffer as a result of the situations they're experiencing? Of course.

Until I've walked a mile in someone else's shoes I'm not going to be patting myself on the back for the decisions I make for my DC.

HEH 😏

It’s genuinely acknowledged that the state sector is in crisis, until there’s a thread about private schools. Then it’s simultaneously disadvantaging students and superior to the private sector.

That fits in perfectly with the notion that private schools spoon feed their students (a bad thing!), yet all children deserve the same level of support (suddenly not a bad thing!).

Do you have a reference? I can't find any sources supporting what you are claiming.

I did find this which is newer and a different data source:
https://www.palatinate.org.uk/state-school-pupils-likely-get-good-degree-private-school-peers-claims-study/

Considering graduates between 2010-2012, 95% of state-school students who achieved four A grades at A Level got a good degree, compared with 91.1% of private school leavers with the same A level results. The researchers concluded: “Students from state schools are more likely to become high achievers than those from independent schools who enter university with the same grades.

I also found these studies, which are interesting:

https://www.york.ac.uk/news-and-events/news/2020/research/private-school-development/
when it came to bullying, risk taking and early consumption of alcohol, private school students fared worse.....“Our study adds to a growing body of evidence that many of the alleged benefits boasted by private schools are actually a product of their selective intake of students rather than the value that the schools add.

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/2022/apr/state-school-pupils-just-happy-their-lives-private-school-counterparts
Private school pupils in England do not tend to report better mental health or greater life satisfaction in early adulthood than their state-educated peers, according to UCL-led research.

'Lots of services' yes but we are discussing the principle of education. Education at school level is for children, children don't get a choice on what their parents have/have not managed to achieve so if they haven't had any stake in determining their life's choices why are they not deserved of the amenities and resources for their education - a fundamental human right!