To wonder if Labour actually will be any better?

[Baabaagreysheep]

I think like most people I am keen to see the back of the current bunch, but I am not confident that anything will massively change for the better. Maybe that’s a bit pessimistic, but I feel that while some things will improve some will get worse - and some sort of at the same time, so I’m expecting my salary to go up but also my workload to go up!

Thinking back to when Labour were last in power it was another world, really. Interested in views.

But if you all you’ve got is ‘Keir’s Beer’ and ‘what is a woman’ when people bring up current Labour metrics in Wales or gender ideology it’s a bit light.

They are all utterly, utterly useless.

Nobody will mention the Brexit elephant which is adding to the devaluation of GBP, inflation, stagnant growth and understaffing in key sectors. Nobody will commit to rejoining the single market and customs union, they'd rather subject the population to more misery than is necessary.

They all spend the majority of their time insulting the electorate by speaking in over-simplified soundbites that they think people want to hear and infantilising people with stupid slogans about trivial issues rather than outlining what the significant underlying problems in the UK are and articulating what actually needs to be done to address these things.

No party seems to have any coherent plan for technological transition, demographic timebomb, making education or healthcare fit for purpose, a proper industrial strategy to improve productivity, reforming our absurd tax system, infrastructure development, energy or food security strategies. It is all short-term nonsense and ridiculous "pledges" to waste more resources on ineffective and pointless schemes that will make no material difference.

As for Blair: I was an abused and then homeless teenager during his tenure, advised by social services to get knocked up if I wanted any help, otherwise you're on your own. No support with housing, benefits, nothing if you wish to continue your education. Police telling a teenage child that being beaten up by a fully grown man was "a domestic" so no action. I was left to live in a slum with no heating and often no food or electricity. Schools were appalling just as now: no encouragement, constant disruption, very low quality teaching, extremely slow pace, and no teacher noticed that I kr my sibling are autistic or that we were being abused. Hardly a utopia.

Neither Labour or the Conservatives give a damn about or have any desire to help someone like me. Despite the above ^^ I have worked incredibly hard and done ok. Conservatives think it's fine to give me a continual paycut every year because I work in the public sector under the spurious guise that public sector payrises fuel inflation (they don't). As a lone parent they tax me far more than a household with two parents and the same income. Simultaneously their economic mismanagement has resulting in a huge rise in our costs, but apparently I should just suck up them giving me a huge paycut every year. Healthcare is so awful I have had to fund operations etc for my children privately/ through insurance. They are both disabled and I have had to fight for any of the support in school they are entitled to. It is an utter shambles.

Labour would be no better. I do not see them committing to pay public sector workers fairly, remove the penalisation of lone parents through the tax system, reduce the absurd tax burden where my marginal tax rate is now over 100% on any additional earnings because I'd lose my personal allowance and tax free childcare (but a two parent family with our household income would not). I don't see any economic plan from them that would improve productivity significantly and therefore generate growth and sustainable salary rises, they just want to hammer the same group of PAYE earners who earn £50k-£150k even worse than now with even more tax: those who have been carrying the country for the last ten years already, while lower earners pay next to nothing as do the self-employed and company owners. Those on PAYE in the above earnings bracket already pay some of the highest taxes in Europe, especially when you include student loan repayments, yet are always the targets. I see no plan from Labour to reform healthcare or education properly to make them functional, despite proven and affordable models from elsewhere in Europe being available to copy, it's not like they have to reinvent the wheel.

The UK is a joke. Given no help when in poverty, then taxed to death for non-existent services, and not a single political party with the faintest clue about what to do even when it is blindingly obvious.

Here you go:

^So what do you want to see?

• current government cling on as long as possible?
• GE ASAP, with a majority result? Who in?
• GE ASAP with minority or coalition government? Who in?
• GE ASAP, hung parliament?
• conservative dictatorship and no GE?^

I don't think there are other options. Talk about what you do want, not what you don't

I want a majority Labour government and make no bones about it. I used to be a paid up lib dem for years and said I would never vote Labour but I find Starmer a lot more credible as a leader than any of the others. He's unified the party after Corbyn. He has a broad representation of left and centre left in his shadow cabinet so I think he can bring together a lot of different views and find a way through that works for the common good. And unlike most politicians he did a lot for women when he was DPP by changing the way rapes are charged and prosecuted (which the Tories immediately undid when he left his post). I'd take actual tangible track record of protecting womens rights over whether they parrot "women can/can't have a penis" as the measure.

Having read that awful story, I would add "don't take action to make scared children fleeing countries with violent police painfully aware they are in a law enforcement centre" to my list of why Labour (or anyone) is better than the Tories. Its absolutely inhuman.

Anyway, sunnyegg your turn. What option do you want to see from a GE and why? alyso never answered and I guess you won't either.

Again, what?
I think "but what about Welsh Labour"? Is the latest twattaboutery from Conservative campaigners. Hot on the heels of "but Jeremy Corbyn", "well Keir had a beer" and "at least the Conservatives know what a woman is". All soundbites with no substance. None of this is "worse than the current government".

The current government has broken the law on multiple occasions. They have lied and misled parliament. They have crashed the economy by proposing policy without following their own due process. That's all proven.

They have a culture of sexism and cronyism. Allegations of corruption are rife. That's not proven but fairly self evident in the news.

The NHS is totally broken, leading to a high excess death rate and record sickness/disability levels due to waiting lists.

Schools are fucked, can't pay their electricity bills or for vital staff.

Public sector have been cut to the bone and now are being asked to fund pay increases without an increase in budget. So that means further cuts to already broken services.

Privatised industries aren't fit for purpose, have been asset stripped and then handed back to public ownership to sort out.

And now debt is more than GDP, and inflation is through the roof.

That is all the result of the Conservatives economic and spending policy, starting with Austerity.

Yet you think Labour will be worse because they might raise taxes?

No it’s not. You may feel that way but you can’t really prescribe what factors people look at to make decisions.

I include Wales and Drakeford. You do not as is your decision.

I also look at current global politics and climate and others may choose not to.

It really is fine for people to think differently. It may feel irritating as Wales isn’t doing well, but I’m not going to discount it because it annoys Labour supporters

Other posters can make up their own minds.

On Starmer, that’s a lot more praise than I’ll give but again your prerogative.

But on this I'd take actual tangible track record of protecting womens rights over whether they parrot "women can/can't have a penis" as the measure I depart even more.

Basic biology and sex based rights are fundamental to me. It’s fine that you feel differently but you won’t change my stance, I’ll keep pushing for those rights.

Yet when Labour were in govt in England, they reduced child poverty, reduced NHS waiting times considerably, and improved education.

Should we bring back skinny Borris?

'Child poverty in most of the UK has fall to the lowest level in seven years but has been rising in Wales, research suggests. Wales was one of four parts of the UK, with the Yorkshire and the Humber and the East and North East of England, which saw rises in child poverty'

Dated July 2022. Go Labour! Saviour of all problems!!

So who’s to blame in the three regions of England then?

The equally as incompent conservatives.

Yet when Labour were in govt in England, they reduced child poverty, reduced NHS waiting times considerably, and improved education.

They certainly didn't improve my child poverty. They left me to rot and refused any help whatsoever. Their policy was that if I was a pregnant teenager they would help me but because I wanted to continue to study (hence now paying huge amounts of tax) they would not help at all.

Their health policy was that a traumatised minor living alone goes to a GP feeling suicidal and is sent home with a now-banned anti-depressant because it already at that time had been shown to increase suicide risks in adults and was never licensed to give to under 18s. No talking therapy, no support. Nobody even checking if I was still alive.

Their education policy was that my school had no text books, a teacher thrown through a window and a building set fire to yet nothing done about discipline. Deliberately "unstreaming" kids so that the intelligent ones had no chance of every reaching their potential and the unintelligent ones were disruptive. Not one teacher noticing my or my sibling's autism. Or that we were very clearly exhibiting signs of trauma.

Didn't seem too great to me when I lived through the effect of their policies.

Here you go @Nepmarthiturn. I always prefer data to anecdote.

https://ifs.org.uk/articles/labours-record-poverty-and-inequality

Unfortunately few people are economically literate enough to know that public spending is not the mark of a successful government. Wealth creation and economic growth, yes that dirty concept, is the indicator that a government knows what it’s doing.

Anyone can spend other people’s money, as nu Labour did and as Tories continue to do. Most of the issues in our economy can be traced back to Nu Labour since 1997. They introduced tax credits to subsidize low wages and created a culture of dependency, didn’t invest in productivity or industry, mismanaged our gold reserves and didn’t prepare the counter for future economic growth. They spent other people’s money. That is not successful government. Unfortunately the Tories have continued with this in steroids.

Unfortunately most people’ thinking about economic success only extends as far as how much can a govt spend without any thought to how it’s generated. Our economy has been run since 1997 much like Greece’s economy was run before it came crashing down.

It’s true that money doesn’t grow on trees. You can tax people and kill your growth, borrow or print. That’s how our economy has been run since 1997. And now you see the chickens roosting.

Their police policy was that a man beating up a teenage girl was a "domestic issue" that they "couldn't get involved in".

Their social work policy was that my social worker laughed and told me I was being "unrealistic" when as a 16 year old who had been made homeless by clearly abusive parents I said I intended to continue to study and actually advised me that "the best thing you can do is get pregnant, then you'll get a house and support".

I was told that the homeless department couldn't help me because I was under 18. And that social services couldn't help me because I was over 16 so too old for care and no benefits if you're studying. So go and work full time while you study and pay your own rent and find a slum landlord to rent to you while under 18 so can't sign a rental contract. It's fine to leave a vulnerable, abused child to live alone in a terrifying area people were murdered, never check on them, offer no mental health support or emotional support or financial support. Doesn't matter if they have no heating and can see their breath in the air all winter. Who cares if they can't afford the bus fare to college or the launderette so have to wash their clothes in the bath but then can't dry them because they have no heating so their clothes stink. Who cares if their flat is covered in mould, or if they try to commit suicide, or if their electricity cuts off all the time because they can't afford to top it up. Who cares if they have no money for food for days at a time.

If you think the Blair years were a compassionate time where vulnerable people were looked after you are very much mistaken.

Hahaha 🤣 just goes to show polititians are not the biggest liars on the planet, unless that's you KIer or Angela 🤣🤣🤣🤣

Indeed. ALL of our political parties in the UK seem incapable of understanding this, hence my comment earlier this morning about the complete lack of any long-term plans for technological transition, industrial strategy, investment in key growth markets, reform of education so that we have the skills needed, fundamental reform of the health service so we don't have an increasingly sick population unable to work at capacity, tax system reform to remove the bottlenecks at £50k and £100k PAYE earnings that make it not worthwhile for people to work full time despite the Government's own independent research stating this and yet neither major party has a plan to fix it, when this is absolutely within their power to do immediately! The idiocy of Brexit. No plans for any of the things that would improve productivity and therefore allow sustainable growth in living standards and tax revenue. They are all utterly, utterly incompetent.

The stats are there for you to see. From that renowned liar, the Office of Fiscal Studies.

https://ifs.org.uk/articles/labours-record-poverty-and-inequality

Article from 2013 that has no gauge to compare that to modern day or the global impacts that effect world wide populations and politics today.

Apples and oranges do one 🤣

It covered the Blair/Brown governments period in office during which child poverty decreased. That was the fact you disputed. The statistics show you’re wrong. You made no mention of modern day or the global impacts that affect world wide populations and politics today. when you were busy calling people liars. You’re just deflecting from being wrong.

Here’s the NHS data from the same period. I guess you’re going to call me a liar now.

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/sites/default/files/summary-high-performing-nhs-progress-review-1997-2010-ruth-thorlby-jo-maybin-kings-fund-april-2010_0.pdf

Fine. Maybe you can answer my question about what you want to see as an electoral outcome, if not a Labour majority

So 13 years of the Conservatives couldn't fix it?

AdamRyan I agree with you. It's not a simple case of spend more = problem fixed. And it ignores the impact on personal disposable income when taxation has to rise to pay for it.

Sorry wrong tag, it was meant to be Swrigh1234

I mean you could carry on with the pathetic and immature bi partisan one liners. Much like a 10
year old. Or have a grown up debate. Real shame that the adults leave the room so early
in these debates and then they go downhill from there.