to think they would feel differently if they had children?

[Violetbeauregardesgum]

Just reflecting that the three most vehemently pro-abortion, abortion on demand up till 40 weeks women I know are all child free. Was talking to one the other day and was taken aback by how uncompromising she was. The 32 week old baby that the woman was imprisoned for aborting was not a baby, all women have the right to end a pregnancy at any point.

I am pro choice but think the 24 week cut off is about right. AIBU to think they would feel differently if they had gone through a pregnancy to term themselves?

Nope. I felt the opposite to be honest. Was more pro choice after having kids.

24 weeks is not long enough, it should be allowed much closer to term. I know this sounds horrible but the stress on the unwilling mum
is also horrible and you might not even suspect by 24 weeks.

Some women don't suspect until they give birth in a toilet. You can't base it on that.

This is a very interesting article on a late term abortion in Canada. Have only skimmed it- will read later- but lots of issues discussed. Montreal woman who had late abortion says she made the right decision | Montreal Gazette

That was a termination for medical reasons, which is also legal in the UK at 35 weeks.

Actually, she was refused a termination on medical terms by the MUHC because the doctors could not agree, and had to go to an unnamed hospital. It's confusing, for sure.

I'd also say, from reading that article, that the law in Canada appears to be a total mess.

How can you have a supreme court decision saying that a woman is entitled to an abortion at any point in her pregnancy for any reason, but simultaneously say you can't force a doctor to perform a late term abortion and consequently for a woman carrying a baby with serious abnormalities to have to fight to get one?

It sounds as though, regardless of the fact that women are technically allowed to have an abortion at any time and for any reason in Canada, she'd actually have found it easier to get a late TMFR in the UK.

Forcing doctors to perform late term
abortions week simply mean many leave the job, or refuse to work in any area where the situation could arise. Many doctors have religious beliefs (or moral ones) that would mean performing a late term abortion is not something that can do. Most doctors to into medicine to save life, and terminating a healthy viable fetus probably isn't what they had in mind...

I think one of the considerations is that certain issues can't be detected or diagnosed until after 20 weeks. By the time you've had the appointments and some time to consider it you can be passed 24 weeks. In those circumstances I'd have not issues with a woman having a late abortion.
Regarding the lady recently imprisoned for causing her own abortion late on I feel really sorry for her that she was that desperate. That she had no one she felt able to go to for help. How desolate would you have to be to do that, it's got to be a mental health issue.
Perhaps in such circumstances there should be an option to choose an early delivery?

I think some Canadian women go to the US for late term abortions, which seems even more confusing and messy.

I found it really disgusting that the UK woman's name was revealed in the press, so she can live with this stigma for the rest of her life.

I also want to say something and I hope this doesn’t get taken the wrong way. I think when you talk about abortion it’s about an unborn baby or embryo/foetus and terminating a pregnancy either because of an issue or because the mother doesn’t want or can’t consent to being pregnant, and whether there should be a limit to the time she has to make that decision. I’m pro-choice (supporting the status quo) and I find that a sufficiently self-contained argument.

Where I feel uncomfortable is the talk of groups of (often vulnerable) people who have been born - people born with birth defects, children in the foster system, kids with Downs syndrome, newborns that are colicky and cry a lot, newborns on ventilators in the NICU, people who don’t have good relationships with their mothers - and basically say that they should have been aborted (or rather, that those people’s lives are so undesirable that abortion should be used as a method to prevent people like them being born). I just think that’s an extremely cruel thing to say, and I don’t think it’s even a necessary or convincing pro-choice argument.

I agree.

Also rolling eyes at the women on this thread who think they have the right to define what "pro-choice" means for you.

I find it ridiculous that people agree that leaving a newborn in a bin is murder but aborting the baby in the womb one day before that is fine. OBVIOUSLY it's more nuanced than that and a sliding scale.

Once a baby could survive independently outside the womb I don't see how any women believe that it's ok to kill them in utero at that stage, unless they are fine with leaving newborns in the bin

This exactly! You have to give birth to a baby regardless at that stage as it's a huge full on baby

Where I feel uncomfortable is the talk of groups of (often vulnerable) people who have been born - people born with birth defects, children in the foster system, kids with Downs syndrome, newborns that are colicky and cry a lot, newborns on ventilators in the NICU, people who don’t have good relationships with their mothers...

People who don't have a good relationship with their mothers? That's all of MN:) Where have you seen that? As also, the colicky ones😧

What I have seen on MN is women saying they would not choose to have a DS baby, and other women chiming in to say they are offended.

AIBU to think they would feel differently if they had gone through a pregnancy to term themselves?

The woman who was recently jailed for having a late-term abortion at home already had children, so had clearly gone through a pregnancy to term more than once.

Women who are pro-choice in any circumstances could just as easily argue that if you've had a baby yourself, you obviously don't understand what it's like to know that you never want a baby and would feel differently if you had experienced the desperation that some women do when they become pregnant.

Regardless of your views either way on abortion, YABVU to make assumptions about what women would/wouldn't feel on this issue based on their reproductive status, and the views of women who have had babies are not any more valid than those who haven't.

karmakameleon ·

I’m not sure if we know whether a foetus feels pain but we definitely know that women feel pain when they give birth. Some people just don’t think that women matter beyond their potential for child bearing”

You can’t imagine that a 32-34 week baby feels pain as it’s terminated? Really?

I don't have children. I'm infertile, and have been through desperately wanting them to making my peace with my situation.

I am 100% pro choice. I'm not in that woman's body or mind so I will never be better placed than her to decide what the best option is.

So few women have abortions later than 12 weeks that it really isn't worth the drama. Those who have later abortions generally aren't doing it for shits and giggles either.

My friend in Northern Ireland was told her unborn baby wasn't going to make it, when she was around 30 weeks. She wasn't allowed to abort and instead had to carry it to deliver as stillborn. I don't want women here to have to go through that.

I’m always a bit perplexed by the posters on here calling for no time limit on abortion. I understand the concept of bodily autonomy being king but the practicalities of it are unworkable.

Firstly nobody is forced to give birth. That happens anyway, there’s no way out of it.

Secondly we can’t have abortion at any gestation on demand because hardly any doctors would sign up to do it. Few people who have trained for years to preserve life would be happy to inject the heart of a near term baby to kill it then deliver its body. Think about what that actually looks like - looking at the face of the baby whose life you just ended. It’s all very well arguing that ‘someone else’ should do this, but handed the injection, could you honestly have that on your conscience? If not, why not?

As for the argument that women should be able to choose as long as the baby is dependent on her body for life, where is the exact limit when this ceases to be the case for the purpose of abortion? When the baby is crowning? When the cord is cut? When you have finished breastfeeding?

We have one of the latest time limits on abortion in the world, we are not a ‘right wing country desperate to force women to birth children’. But society deems it morally unethical to terminate babies who are capable of surviving outside the womb, and unless you’re willing to roll your sleeves up and terminate these babies yourself, I think expecting other people to do it is very indulgent.

I think the current law of 24 weeks is a good balance and shouldn’t/couldn’t be extended for these reasons.

Yes, and I'm not saying doctors should be forced to perform late term abortions.

I'm saying that it's dishonest to have a law saying women can have an abortion at any time and for any reason if in practice the lack of doctors willing to perform a late term abortion of a healthy baby will prevent her from actually getting one.

What your friend went through is horrendous and she should never have had to experience that.

But there is no indication that women in other parts of the UK will have to endure that. That's not the way the wind is blowing. Political pressure is on Northern Ireland to match the level of abortion access in the rest of the UK, not the other way round.

Great post, I agree with this.

To me it sounds like she is pro choice but thinks a cut off is a good idea.
Do you not think a cut off is a good idea?

I think it is a good idea, and can't say how long as I would need to look into it, but I think there should be one.

I don't think it should be criminal though, I just think it should be regulated better to prevent abortions happening after the cut off. The pills in the post thing is wrong, it's all privatised.

I had an abortion not long ago, only a few weeks, but they insisted on scanning me themselves and wouldn't even look at the private one I got. It was a pain for me but it's the right thing to do.

I actually regret my abortion, personally, but I'm still pro choice.

@Madamecastafiore I feel the same.

If you suddenly decide you don’t want your full term baby, why not give it the chance at a life with someone else.

You've got to birth it anyway dead or alive, so what’s the difference. That sentence a woman shouldn’t be forced to birth a baby is bizarre- they have to birth it anyway either way, there’s no choice! Yes, no woman should be forced to raise a child she doesn’t want but there are other options than killing full term foetuses.

I feel differently about early term abortions where the baby cannot survive without the mother but if it can live independently it’s wrong IMO.

I'd argue that adoption numbers are also plummeting, especially for black and Asian babies. It's also taking an average of 2 years for babies to be adopted. Adoptions continue to decline with children waiting longer to be placed, latest figures show - Community Care

The argument that near term babies should be given to the hordes of people who would willingly adopt doesn't seem to be very practical either.

Once birth takes place the biological father gets a say in what happens so a woman can't unilaterally decide to put a child up for adoption.

Surely she can in certain circumstances, for example if she is a single woman pregnant by sperm donor, or one night stand and doesn't know the father or father does not want to know?