All the doctors I know are leaving. Are we going to be screwed for healthcare in 5 years time ?

[Gigihadr]

Our NHS now has some of the worst health outcomes out of 19 wealthy nations compared in an international study.
But in 2010 the NHS regularly ranked 1st or 2nd in most international studies.

The UK is under-doctored, we have a 3rd fewer doctors per 1000 people than Germany or Spain

Our government response to the doctors we have left has been to erode working conditions and pay, ensure they have record levels of inflation and rocketing student debt

They are moving to better paid, better resourced systems/employers (they are a competitive international commodity) and I can’t blame them for that.

AIBU to think we are utterly screwed? why are we just sitting back and watching this slow motion car crash ?

Because of people like this. They blame everything on foreigners whilst continually voting for parties with a poor track record in governance. The countries at the top of the pile are those with governments who can deliver strong long term strategies, not corrupt short termists who give all of the nations money to their favoured friends.

However, people like dotjones won’t be happy until we become destitute. They are easily fooled and distracted by the looters who tell them to focus on dinghy people. As long as one Albanian is stopped from coming over on a dinghy who cares if we starve and our infrastructure crumbles around us?

She also cannot explain what is so "inward looking" about Denmark, Norway and Switzerland. Doubt she's set foot in any of them.

DP and I were both NHS GPs.
We've just emigrated.
Grateful patients, no no-win-no-fee lawyers and every Tom dick and Harry trying to sue at any opportunity, housing paid for, Private school fees partly paid, business class flights, 40 hour weeks, 10 weeks annual leave, £120K+ TAKE HOME pay.
This is for foreign government jobs in a place where healthcare is free at the point of need.
There are HUNDREDS of British trained GPs here and more arriving every month.
The UK has run on poaching foreign workers for a long time. Now it's getting a taste of its own medicine.
My heart breaks for my colleagues back home but I am so grateful DP and I got out when we did. It's no longer the vocation we signed up for. It feels more like a battlefield, constantly having to be defensive, patients and commissioners demanding more and more with no extra time or money given.
GPs are massively dehumanised in the UK. I don't think I'll ever forget being doubled over in pain with a sudden emergency condition whilst seeing a patient, who then shouted at me (whilst I'm bent over in pain) for not being able to deal with a second ridiculously minor problem of dry skin as I had to leave to go to hospital! UK Healthcare is heading for a shock!

This is so sad for the UK, but I’m sure also for you. Even in 2016 when I retired from nursing, some of our registrar-level doctors were applying to NZ, and moving out there for the quality of life. Such a waste, such a loss. Seems we can’t have nice things if we don’t look after them.

After the very funny document produced today many medical students are also looking into emigrating. Not sure who is going to train all these new people as there is not enough capacity to train what we have now. Many students are turned away as too many of them on one ward, or no one available to teach them.
And I'd love to know what 20% of the medical degree is being cut out - compassion and knowledge maybe.
The utter stupidity of this plan just seems incredible.
More students does not mean more, or well trained, staff.

I've heard a discussion today - 'If you're an NHS worker, what solution do you have for staffing crisis?' I wanted to email 'Run, and don't look back'. There is no easy solution and the public is in massive denial, made worse by the "our NHS' rhetiric paddled by clueless politicians who will never admit it's not solvable in the way that would win them the next election.

The long term plan is ridiculous. By cutting the medical degree by a year it will fall below the hours of study required by other countries for doctors, meaning UK trained doctors will no longer be able to work abroad. The appetite for forcing people to stay in the NHS for x years when they have to pay for the degree themselves is also insulting but both will no doubt happen and effectively trap people here whilst we still poach staff from abroad quite happily. None of the actual issues have been addressed, in fact they've been made worse as its laid out in black and white the fact that doctors are to be replaced really by PAs, AAs and whatever else. No plans to address the training bottlenecks but magically there's going to be scope to train these people- wtf.

The NHS came up with it.

@Chocolateship 'By cutting the medical degree by a year it will fall below the hours of study required by other countries for doctors, meaning UK trained doctors will no longer be able to work abroad'

A good way to make sure they will not emigrate....

And? Absolutely doesn't mean its still not ludicrous whoever wrote it.

A sure fire way to make training here ridiculously unappealing too, I suspect that's what they want though, patient safety isn't at the forefront of any of the government's decisions.

@SunnyEgg the managers in the NHS came up with it, not the clinical staff. It's all just words that won't happen because they can't.
V much doubt PA/AA positions will exist in private medicine, just state.

I think we are heading for non-doctor led healthcare sadly

NHS managers don’t get to decide educational
requirements. This is nonsense. This would need to go through the regulator, GMC, and medical schools who have an organisation too. It will take a long time to sort it out, though it can be done and maintain the 5500 hours needed to match EU requirements.

Medicine was often a 6 year course so it has been shaved by 1 year.

PAs and AAs may be in the private sphere as well. Remember in many private hospitals, if you have an inpatient stay, you’re often cared for by nurses with recourse to a couple of medical officers who will be below consultant level by quite some margin. Indeed, in some, if you have a medical emergency, you might be transferred over to the NHS. Mumsnet is very london centric and people may not realise that outside of very, very large cities - private hospitals don’t have consultant doctors who work exclusively for them. So private hospitals, needing to maintain margins and also dependent on the NHS workforce for their own staff and procedures, will look at lower grade staff if they need to.

@Darhon the NHS document has not set out any academic requirements and as far as I'm aware and not consulted any doctors on its implementation. No one actually has any detail on what the 4 year degree will leave out, or how the apprentices will be trained (not one Uni has been consulted).
Talking to doctors, I have yet to hear from one who thinks any of it is a good, or workable, idea. Not until retention and increases in specialty training spaces and the end of constant rotational training are sorted out.
My job is to help students applying to medicine and dentistry, and it's getting harder to do this every year.
And I have not met one PA in the private hospitals my mum has been too. Only ever gets treated by a doctor, even if it's just for her eye drops before treatment. Nowhere near London either.
Whatever anyone thinks of the system, doctors are leaving, or planning to leave, in droves. Medical students are planning their exit route before they've even started. And we need to sort this out before planning anything.

This.

I work in this field, and have done for a couple of decades. We are absolutely not struggling to get people to apply to medicine. Yes, there has been a dip recently, but only from a very high starting point. Medical schools get a surplus of applicants every year. It’s still a guaranteed job at the end unlike most other areas.

Agree though that the post grad pathway needs sorting.

The educational side if this will take several years to sort, they will start by just trying to get existing schools to take more. The more radical proposals will take years to agree.

As I said, if you stay overnight in most private hospitals outside of London, the doctor will be a low grade medical officer. You see the consultant as an outpatient. I think they would employ to allied roles in the future.

@Darhon No point having thousands more students if a) there are not places and people to train them on wards b) there are not enough jobs for them to go into (foundation already has a waiting list every year) c) they leave as pay and conditions are so awful, and so much better elsewhere.
Give people a reason to stay, more doctors on wards so more students can be trained. Limited doctors on wards, too stretched to teach, poor quality training, more staff leave.
And Unis, if you hadn't noticed, are striking too, as poor pay, so many staff leaving. Loads of finalists leaving without their degrees as they have not been marked - not sure how they are going to take to having more work to. I assume a magic pot of money will be found.

@Darhon PS I think we are saying the same thing 😊. My personal skin in the game is that I support potential medics/dentists/vets from several schools in deprived areas, so am a huge fan of WP opportunities.
I'd also like my own DD to stay in the UK and not be half way round the world - but I also don't want her to be burned out and unhappy. Please someone sort it so the NHS is a nice place to work for her.

None of the doctors I know are leaving. It will be fine, Rishi has a 15 point plan and it looks solid.

Heh. Exactly what my BeLeave friend said every time I mentioned Brexit.

”Oh I’m sure it will be fine.”

He also has 5 pledges that are going well......

Completely agree. These are all the sticking points that mean this plan will not easily be realised. Both parties are using this for election purposes but the reality of training more will be very hard as we have seen over the last 10 years. The UKs lack of bed space is also going to be a huge issue!

On many points yes and with the access routes too. Though I think I may see a greater role for allied health professionals than you. I think they will actually become key

Attitudes like this are one of the reasons we're on this mess

Rather than confront an issue and discuss it like grownups and search for ways to tackle it, people prefer to take offence and use emotive language.

FYI not all people of a certain age have "paid tax their whole lives". And that's a fact not a judgement.