All the doctors I know are leaving. Are we going to be screwed for healthcare in 5 years time ?

[Gigihadr]

Our NHS now has some of the worst health outcomes out of 19 wealthy nations compared in an international study.
But in 2010 the NHS regularly ranked 1st or 2nd in most international studies.

The UK is under-doctored, we have a 3rd fewer doctors per 1000 people than Germany or Spain

Our government response to the doctors we have left has been to erode working conditions and pay, ensure they have record levels of inflation and rocketing student debt

They are moving to better paid, better resourced systems/employers (they are a competitive international commodity) and I can’t blame them for that.

AIBU to think we are utterly screwed? why are we just sitting back and watching this slow motion car crash ?

@TrixieFatell I think midwife's are treated awfully. When DD did a her placement the poor things were crying as so short staffed and stressed. They knew they were not providing the best care because it was impossible. The situation was so unsafe DD reported it. No one gave a damn.

@Medstudent12 i can imagine that not been prioritised for on the job training and experience is very frustrating and I agree it shouldn’t happen. SHOs and registrars should absolutely get priority.

when I was doing my NIPE training I turned up once on the ward to do them with the annp and there was a medical student and I let them take priority as I knew I could come back another day. If it had been an SHO wanting support from a more senior paed or annp I’d have done the same.

It’s not just underfunding huge amounts were being paid off for PFI the NHS wasn’t designed to deal with how far healthcare has progressed

Neither the Tories or Labour will be honest regarding the NHS because they know it’s not a vote winner. I would like to see a cross party committee looking into what changes have to be made and it to stay off the election campaign

Agree with everything you say @Medstudent12. My F2 daughter said she is not learning in her foundation training post as she has to be a service provider/dogsbody. She can’t attend CAMHS planning meetings to discuss patients as she’s got a massive list of jobs to do.

Reading this thread I think I will jump ship now! Been considering it a while, been out of the NHS a couple of years having children but been a qualified nurse 15 years. When I first started staffing levels where good, paper work half of what it is now, I had time to do a proper job.... now it's diabolical! We all know the Tory plan is to get rid but the private sector don't pay enough, and if medical cover on current wage is the only option I think there will be a mass jumping of ship for over seas..... there will be nothing left of this country in a couple of years

What they could do is have honest, and possibly brutally frank, conversations with the public about the state of the NHS and what might be needed to rescue it. We need a Government that can at least tell the truth and stop pretending everything is just hunky dory!

And actually, just walk around a motorway service station to observe the physical condition of the population... Nowhere else in Europe have I seen so many grossly and morbidly obese people stopping for (yet) another unhealthy snack. Not old people, but young women with small babies and dadbod men in their 20s. The NHS cannot turn the tide against the normalisation of obesity, which raises the risk of type 2 diabetes (already the biggest single cost to the NHS) and all the other conditions (heart, cancer) that are directly correlated to excess weight.

Those older generational people you are all so scathing about have paid taxes and NI contributions all their working lives. This is paying for their care now. Yes there are so called bed blockers, but this is because there is no intermediate care between leaving hospital and going home. They are fit to leave, but where to?

Well yes I know exactly what you mean. But persistent underfunding of,and constant reorganisation of, public health hasn’t exactly helped. Or indeed the Government constantly bowing down to the food industry. I haven’t seen any real attempt to take control of the obesity epidemic.

I support the strike and think it's bad for the public if you don't strike. Very nieve and self pitying to bemoan it all yet not stand up for it via strike action. conditions need to improve or the system fails

I can promise you its not about the money for many.. I have recently left medicine after 25 years. And am now working in a non medical minimum wage job... I never ever want to step foot in a medical job again..not for ANY money... the job has become impossible to do how you know it could, and should, be done as the system is utterly overwhelmed and I no longer felt I could safely practice in it. Our PA was great but I had to supervise her (fully qualified) and check all her consults and prescriptions as well as doing my own job which had no finite limit to the amount of work that could be added to.my list 🤷‍♀️

This is the question. Carers are so criminally underpaid and care homes being made into businesses was just so misguided that hospitals are left to deal with it. Even more investment won't provide much of an answer to be honest.

I think, personally, that the significant error (and it's a whole societal failure IMO) is the title of the National Health Service. It should be called the Illness Service, and tasked to deal with illnesses. The onus should be on the population to take care of their health and only turn to it as a service for elderly, sick, and diseased people with serious conditions. Help with acute care, plus maternity, childbirth and acute ill health including a pandemic of a previously unknown source, and accidental injury. And much more emphasis on public health, including the message that your health is your responsibility.

Plenty of opportunities outside of the NHS if you want to continue with nursing, or loads of transferable skills. Someone I used to work closely with does school imms now (adult trained nurse, no extra qualification needed) and works school hours (with a bit of work to do at home which is paid as admin hours) and term time only, for example.

We are so screwed. I recently had an emergency admission to hospital; spent 50 hours in a corridor on a reclining chair (!!) without seeing a doctor. I was essentially in a queue to see a doctor, in a corridor for over two days. There just weren't enough doctors (or other medical staff) for all of patients.

My grandfather is currently in hospital- one more than 50 miles from where he (and we) live as there was no space in our local one- and has been since last Wednesday. We haven't yet had a phone call from the doctor taking care of her and twice a day when we phone we are told that they will phone to update us as soon as possible, but the doctor has three times as many patients than he should have. When my parents went down there last Thursday they stayed for over 36 hours and even in person never managed to consult with his doctor. They didn't even see any evidence that he has a doctor.

All we can do is vote in a Labour government. And remember all of this and not vote the Tories in ever again- or at least until they prove they won't do this again, in a decent manifesto that puts people first.

Yup! I’m one of those looking to leave! It’s not just the money, it’s the watering down of the profession, lack of training, lack of autonomy over rota/location, workload, toxicity, management, scope creep and the fact that i constantly feel like I am disappointing patients due to the above. I really can’t take any more feel like I’m trudging through mud. Patients are getting annoyed and taking it out of healthcare professionals despite the fact it’s out of my hands.

I remain to be convinced that a change of government will change anything significant. It will be rearranging the deck chairs because IMO no government, including the one we have now, has (or ever will have) the capacity/funds/resources to fund the bottomless pit of health demand imposed by a population who cannot be bothered to take even the slightest modicum of responsibility for their health and that of their children.

Sorry, I should probably moderate my statement above to say that there is a significant proportion (hopefully a minority) of the population who ignore all and any health advice.

I remain to be convinced that a change of government will change anything significant.

The most significant change will be that whoever comes next are not the reckless, chaotic, corrupt, unstable Tory Party who have wrecked our economy and made us uninvestable.

I'm certain your wish will be granted @TooBigForMyBoots . But I don't think they will do much better, frankly, although I hope I am wrong.

I was listening to a programme with a bit about asset management
https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/thinking-allowed/id261548752?i=1000616039890
These businesses run everything - such as the water company that pours sewage into rivers but gives large payments to their shareholders, or invest in rental properties again to make profits for their shareholders, or farms or harbours. Also these people are accountable to no one.
So much of the population’s bills are paid into the pockets of the (usually already wealthy) shareholders whilst standards of service aren’t maintained.
Also there is non Dom status where money is removed from the country to avoid tax.
I can’t help feeling that the money we expect to be used to run things eg trains, the NHS is being siphoned off. And no one including the Labour Party cares, whilst things become more and more run down.
Govs just seem to pander to the latest DM headline or Twitter spat instead of tackling issues.
There is no money for Doctors salaries - but why? Where do we start to fix this?

Yep. Totally agree with this. Worked as a health. Professional in the NHS for 17 years before being poached by a private company. The general public abuses the NHS and takes very little responsibility for their own health. The reason I left the NHS wasn't pay it was due to being abused and attacked by the general public and expected to wave a magic wand over insoluble problems.

That's not to say the current government isn't an utter shit show and hasn't contributed to the current chaos but the British public are very entitled and embedded in the belief that the NHS is there to fix them. Whenever I treated patients from other countries they were aghast at the British attitude towards the NHS. There's bullying, micromanagement, incompetence and to be blunt not very bright people in senior positions who got there by nepotism running one of the biggest organisations in the country . And badly.

Doctors teachers yep, under-appreciated basically. :(

I am in Australia with a hybrid public/private system. If health care in England follows a similar model the main difference will be private consultants working outside of the public system (although many do a mix of both).

And yes, the pay is better than public work, set up costs and practice costs notwithstanding. Some people pay so they can choose their doctor, others so they can see the same person every time. private care is a lot cheaper than in the UK though, because the government partially funds the private consultations, lab tests, X-rays ans the like

ANPs and PAs have a role for sure. I don’t think anyone disputes that. It’s when the conversation turns to them being on an equal footing with doctors it becomes problematic. These health professionals are, and need to be, supervised - by doctors! Because they don’t have the depth or breadth of knowledge. Yes they may know a great deal about one area of healthcare E.g respiratory. But patients rarely fit into one box, they often have multiple issues and co morbidities, and knowledge of how these integrate can only come from medical training. ANPs and PAs may see ‘simple’ cases in GP or ED, but again problems can arise here, in our area a patient had seen an ANP in a GP practice repeatedly and was treated multiple times for a urine infection, when actually the patient had an endometrial cancer which was missed, because the ability to think broadly is not always there. So no, whilst ANPs and PAs may have a role, they are not equal to doctors, nor will they ever be. The government plans to increase doctor alternatives, and likely extend their scope and independence, which is honestly terrifying and will be a massive gamble. Unfortunately the public will be the Guinea pigs in this purely cost saving experiment, the politicians and the rich will be paying to see doctors privately.

They will have a massive hill to climb. But we cannot begin to recover while the Tories are in power.

Ever taken a position where you had to call all your suppliers and clients to tell them that your incompetent, arrogant predecessor has gone? And hope that relationships and business can be rebuilt? That's what our next government will have to do.

First call will probably be to the IMF.