All the doctors I know are leaving. Are we going to be screwed for healthcare in 5 years time ?

[Gigihadr]

Our NHS now has some of the worst health outcomes out of 19 wealthy nations compared in an international study.
But in 2010 the NHS regularly ranked 1st or 2nd in most international studies.

The UK is under-doctored, we have a 3rd fewer doctors per 1000 people than Germany or Spain

Our government response to the doctors we have left has been to erode working conditions and pay, ensure they have record levels of inflation and rocketing student debt

They are moving to better paid, better resourced systems/employers (they are a competitive international commodity) and I can’t blame them for that.

AIBU to think we are utterly screwed? why are we just sitting back and watching this slow motion car crash ?

We have been watching this slow motion car crash since 1948

The best health care system in the world in 1948 was turned over to command economy and Govt monopoly.

It was pretty good in 2010 @Olderandolder. Wonder what happened?🤔

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/10375877.amp

Not in this area but as a hospital receiving team we end up with ALOT of inappropriate referrals from nurse led MIUs, essentially increasing our workload and decreasing efficiency

@Medstudent12 I'm sorry you and your colleagues need to strike. You deserve so much better

Yup, I'm a doctor and most of my colleagues have already left the country. Australia pays so much better,and treats their doctors much better. Those that haven't left the country are leaving medicine.

It's tragic what is happening. There is no point training doctors if we can't retain them. So many people are against pay restoration for doctors, but are also quick to complain about waiting times.

Junior doctors are also treated appallingly. We are infantilised and abused on a regular basis. Not able to have breaks at work, access study leave, or even annual leave. Being forced to rotate resulting in expensive transport and childcare.

I agree with this by EffortlessDesmond.
And much more emphasis on public health, including the message that your health is your responsibility.

Too many people still reject taking personal responsibility for their own health and have unrealistic expectations of what the NHS can then provide to ease the often inevitable health problems caused by poor lifestyle choices.

I have needed urgent care twice n the UK in last 10 yrs… both times seen by a nurse practitioner.. once seen only by NP then another time the NP referred me to an after hrs GP.. I was incredibly impressed with standard care and knowledge both times ( I am a GP)
On the other hand I worked with a NP in an after hrs role and when I asked what her role was ( NP are new where I practice) she said “ I have the heart of a nurse and skills of a doctor “.Quite offensive to suggest I have no heart and it quickly became apparent that her clinical skills where not flash.
With every clinician .. NP, GP, anaesthetist or whatever then the most important trait is humility and knowing what you don’t know, asking for help. Any practitioner who lacks that insight is dangerous!

I could weep when I see how the Conservative government have wrecked the NHS after all the improvements (PFI dependence excluded, obviously) of the 1997-2010 Labour government. Of my 35 years as an NHS nurse, those 13 years were the very best of my career. Services improved and expanded, and both patient and staff satisfaction was high. The improvements in cancer care and cardiac care were astonishing.

The Tories have been opposed to the NHS since its inception, and knowing they haven’t a chance at winning the next election are apparently trying to leave the biggest possible shitshow for the next government to have to deal with.

I just don't understand what this pathetic corrupt bunch of idiots want. No health service at all, because that is what is going to happen v shortly. Even they or their families might need A & E. If they really hate the NHS then at least have the decency to offer an alternative.
And why promote those PA and ACP jobs when they are costing more than doctors ?
They are either v v v stupid or, nope. Can't think of an or.
Anyway, we'll have no one educated soon to do the jobs since loads of teachers leaving too.
I think we need to be more French and get more angry.

I guess we might be see how much the next lot can improve it without PFI or increased debt

I think what they want is no state expenditure at all, maximum profits for private companies and minimum taxation for the wealthy.

They want the UK to be like the US.

I don’t want to be in the US, if I did I’d move there.

Government “debt” is not the same as household debt though. I know Truss caused havoc and reduced our ability to “print money”, but we own the BoE and can (pre-Truss at least) borrow as much as we like, interest-free and with no repayment schedule. What Truss tried to do was borrow money to give tax cuts to the wealthy. It’s fine to borrow money for investment in the country and its infrastructure, not so fine to reward the mates who got them into power.

The old household line is not really working anymore. Debt servicing costs and both parties can probably see that by now.

I literally could have written your post, and so could Dh. Soul destroying 😢

Absolutely. Instead this government are too busy fighting between each other

13 years ago we had a maximum 18-week wait for treatment, with the standard largely achieved everywhere. Now people are waiting a year or more just for their first appointment.

I retired in 2016 because I genuinely believed if I didn’t go I would die of stress and overwork, and for the 6 years between 2010 and my retirement, every service was supposed to make “efficiency savings”. That was actually achievable for the first couple of years but after that there was nothing to left to cut but quality. Over the course of each week I worked at least 8 hours of unpaid overtime, and coupled with the long drive to work I was out of the house for 60 hours a week.

And that was 7 years ago! God only knows how much worse it must be now. Yes the NHS might be the “British religion”, but if you have pets and see how much vets charge for the most basic interventions, you’ll appreciate how stupendously lucky we all are to have free at the point of use universal healthcare.

We’d be insane to give that up for the sake of lower taxes, which only ever benefit the wealthy anyway.

I have a conditional offer for med school and I must admit I feel quite nervous reading this. I am a psychologist considering medicine as I've always wanted to be a GP and think a mental health background would be useful in today's society. I feel a bit of an outlier in some respects reading this thread.

Good luck for results. I don’t know but dd wants to be a Dr and I’m still encouraging it. There was someone on the radio saying consultants are well paid but they compare themselves to accountants, lawyers or whomever as a point of reference for earning in 40s and 50s.

I still think medicine can be a good path for her over just corporate for higher wages

But she’s very young and I’m more aware of client service type jobs, it’s money but also some less attractive stuff.

With luck when you qualify we will have an improved NHS with happier patients and better rewarded (in every way) staff. Working for the NHS can be brilliant, almost every staff member is deeply committed to it, but it depends a lot on which party is in government.

There will always be decent opportunities once qualified in medicine. It's shit in the NHS at the moment but anecdotally I don't know any of my colleagues who have left that have left the profession altogether.

But efficiency is getting bang for your buck - if you don't have much bang (money input) getting a pretty mediocre result is good efficiency.
The US has huge bang and huge treatment (not for the poor so loses there) but the best care in the world if you can afford it. But that is not efficient.

The Netherlands has a population of 17 million.

This is already the case in the UK. Many (most?) NHS (public health service) consultants work in private practice as an (extremely lucrative) side gig. In many places the private hospital is next door to the NHS one, makes parking the Range Rover easier.

Well yes because it boosts the pay up, still not comparable with pay abroad though. If the pay was more decent in the NHS and the working conditions were better less would do this- although there is a place for private practice imo. If things don't change people will just fully work private similar to in dentistry which will be much worse.

Actually it isn’t always “extremely lucrative” to do private on the side. Dh gave it up for two reasons
1: BUPA set the prices, if you don’t agree to their prices they stop patients from seeing you. They haven’t put up the rate the Dr gets (for the procedures and clinics that Dh does) for over 10 years . They were investigated by the monopolies commission about this but still get away with it.
2: After tax it just wasn’t worth it.

All of his specialty in our town have given up private practice. The demand is definitely there, and apparently the private hospital are desperate to tempt them back. But they are all too tired, busy and stressed anyway .

We don’t have a Range Rover, we lease our one car through the NHS salary sacrifice scheme. As I need the car for school runs Dh rides his bike to work.

I've had private treatment and still see the surgeon as it is ongoing. Poor soul always arrives at a trot, races through appointment (whilst being still being thorough) - if I was him I'd be boosting my pension and getting out when I can. He is probably approaching retirement age.

When I lived outside London 20 year ago the surgeons did a lot of private work (I worked allied to medicine) and did own ferraris jags etc