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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

All the doctors I know are leaving. Are we going to be screwed for healthcare in 5 years time ?

334 replies

Gigihadr · 27/06/2023 12:01

Our NHS now has some of the worst health outcomes out of 19 wealthy nations compared in an international study.
But in 2010 the NHS regularly ranked 1st or 2nd in most international studies.

The UK is under-doctored, we have a 3rd fewer doctors per 1000 people than Germany or Spain

Our government response to the doctors we have left has been to erode working conditions and pay, ensure they have record levels of inflation and rocketing student debt

They are moving to better paid, better resourced systems/employers (they are a competitive international commodity) and I can’t blame them for that.

AIBU to think we are utterly screwed? why are we just sitting back and watching this slow motion car crash ?

OP posts:
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10
Dotjones · 27/06/2023 12:10

Yes we're screwed. We're watching because we're powerless to do anything about it and above all can't afford to do anything about it. Whatever party is in power after the next election, things will be worse than they are now. Our society is in a terminal decline. I think the reason for this is that we have moved away from the values that allowed us to be in a dominant position. We used to be a society that put our own interests above those of outsiders. That's no longer the case, many would say that's a good thing, but you can't be in the top few "best" countries to live in without screwing over those worse off than you.

Google tells me the top three countries for healthcare are Denmark, Norway and Switzerland. All inward looking countries. The Swiss are famed for their neutrality - but that has always been based on self-interest. Better not to fight the Germans and hoard their gold.

Coffeaddict · 27/06/2023 12:11

Yep

nameschangg · 27/06/2023 12:12

i think we are already screwed with the ageing population issue.

DataNotLore · 27/06/2023 12:12

Gigihadr · 27/06/2023 12:01

Our NHS now has some of the worst health outcomes out of 19 wealthy nations compared in an international study.
But in 2010 the NHS regularly ranked 1st or 2nd in most international studies.

The UK is under-doctored, we have a 3rd fewer doctors per 1000 people than Germany or Spain

Our government response to the doctors we have left has been to erode working conditions and pay, ensure they have record levels of inflation and rocketing student debt

They are moving to better paid, better resourced systems/employers (they are a competitive international commodity) and I can’t blame them for that.

AIBU to think we are utterly screwed? why are we just sitting back and watching this slow motion car crash ?

Why?

Because we as a nation voted for this.

ChardonnaysBeastlyCat · 27/06/2023 12:12

Of course not.

There are hundreds of doctors and nurses arriving every single day on the boats.

HealthyBBQ · 27/06/2023 12:12

Doctors have been trying to say for ages they want the NHS to stay and they get less pay in the NHS and actually if it goes private then doctors pay shoots up and they get better working hours. But they’re still trying to save it. Now they’ve realised post pandemic they aren’t valued so fuck it, go abroad where you leave on time, get paid for over time and get paid more than here. No brainer

wavingtreetops · 27/06/2023 12:13

We are screwed now. Yes, I have every expectation it will get worse.

nameschangg · 27/06/2023 12:14

It's not just pay though there's a host of younger people who are having to take on huge student debt. they then get a good job but the pay is rubbish & tax is high & they still spending most of that income on housing. What's the point?

wavingtreetops · 27/06/2023 12:14

We used to be a society that put our own interests above those of outsiders What do you mean by this @Dotjones

kelsaycobbles · 27/06/2023 12:16

All of Europe has an aging population

So why does it affect us much worse ?

I know - it's the only way we can he great

Nowvoyager99 · 27/06/2023 12:17

The ageing demographic is the underlying problem here.

It means that we have far too many older people needing support from NHS, and far too few younger people either doing those jobs in NHS or paying taxes to pay for it.

The solutions are either to tax corporations/individuals far more to pay for it until the Boomers die off, and hope people start to have more children;

Or bin the NHS altogether and everyone pays.

It's hideous.

kelsaycobbles · 27/06/2023 12:21

So out population is ageing faster than Europe as a whole ?!?

SisterDonnarix · 27/06/2023 12:21

The doctor retention crisis is being papered over by the government consciously training people to become pseudo-doctors who wouldn't meet the admission criteria for a medical degree.

Qualified GPs replaced with ANPs, PAs and paramedics.

A&E doctors replaced with ANPs and PAs.

Surgical trainees replaced with PAs and Surgical Care Practitioners (whatever they are).

A Physician Associate (a graduate of any degree who does a 2 year masters) starts out on £40-£45k after graduation. They cannot legally prescribe any medications or even order an x-ray. A newly qualified doctor, who's studied medicine for 5 years, starts on £29k. Second year = £32k. And that's based on a 48hr week.

ANPs are band 7 - £40-£50k. Yet they can't do half of the things a doctor does and are less educated.

No wonder doctors leave. They are treated with contempt and replaced with I imitators who are better paid than them.

NeedToChangeName · 27/06/2023 12:22

We've been happy to poach medical staff from other countries for years / decades. And now we don't like it when other countries do it to us

WaterIris · 27/06/2023 12:30

Everything's fucked, not just the NHS.

The economy - as those in power tiptoe round the truth that you cannot have infinite growth. People cannot afford to house themselves or pay their bills, whilst huge dividends are being sucked out by shareholders at the top.

The environment - because actually making a meaningful difference would require huge investment and sacrifice and very few people are prepared to do it.

Education - the thread ongoing at the moment about school behaviour being the worst its ever been. This generation of children will be in the workplace in another 5-7 years.

Society at large and law and order is breaking down. People are waking up to the fact that they are worse off and that for the first time in modern life, there's no opportunity to have work = reward, and that their children will probably be worse off than they are.

nameschangg · 27/06/2023 12:30

So out population is ageing faster than Europe as a whole ?!?

They don't have the model of the nhs & I don't think as much intergenerational inequality

MrsMikeDrop · 27/06/2023 12:39

NeedToChangeName · 27/06/2023 12:22

We've been happy to poach medical staff from other countries for years / decades. And now we don't like it when other countries do it to us

Ha ha, so true!

Original poster
Gigihadr · 27/06/2023 12:42

SisterDonnarix · 27/06/2023 12:21

The doctor retention crisis is being papered over by the government consciously training people to become pseudo-doctors who wouldn't meet the admission criteria for a medical degree.

Qualified GPs replaced with ANPs, PAs and paramedics.

A&E doctors replaced with ANPs and PAs.

Surgical trainees replaced with PAs and Surgical Care Practitioners (whatever they are).

A Physician Associate (a graduate of any degree who does a 2 year masters) starts out on £40-£45k after graduation. They cannot legally prescribe any medications or even order an x-ray. A newly qualified doctor, who's studied medicine for 5 years, starts on £29k. Second year = £32k. And that's based on a 48hr week.

ANPs are band 7 - £40-£50k. Yet they can't do half of the things a doctor does and are less educated.

No wonder doctors leave. They are treated with contempt and replaced with I imitators who are better paid than them.

This is so true. I went to the GP and was seen by a Physician associate once….

they had no clue

Waste of time

OP posts:
SisterDonnarix · 27/06/2023 12:44

Gigihadr · 27/06/2023 12:42

This is so true. I went to the GP and was seen by a Physician associate once….

they had no clue

Waste of time

Show quote history

They are a particularly dangerous group of people because they kid themselves that they've done a medical degree in 2 years.

They have no idea of the breadth and depth of medicine that medical students have to learn, and are arrogantly unaware of their limitations.

I've never encountered one I would let treat a family member of mine.

mrsneate · 27/06/2023 12:47

All the nurses I know are leaving too,

I'm considering it! It's just too stressful and mentally draining and there's been no let up for a few years now

MissyB1 · 27/06/2023 12:56

Have you heard the latest terrifying proposal from this idiot Government? Apprentice Doctors! They don’t go to medical school they just do an apprenticeship instead! So at 18 fresh out of your A levels, just follow one of the senior doctors around and start practicing, what could possibly go wrong?! 🤦‍♀️

MissyB1 · 27/06/2023 12:57

And yes we are screwed, because it was deliberate policy from the Tories to starve the NHS of investment in order to encourage more private healthcare.

Throwncrumbs · 27/06/2023 13:02

nameschangg · 27/06/2023 12:12

i think we are already screwed with the ageing population issue.

That’s right blame the people who have paid tax all their lives for the screw up now happening!

Throwncrumbs · 27/06/2023 13:05

SisterDonnarix · 27/06/2023 12:44

They are a particularly dangerous group of people because they kid themselves that they've done a medical degree in 2 years.

They have no idea of the breadth and depth of medicine that medical students have to learn, and are arrogantly unaware of their limitations.

I've never encountered one I would let treat a family member of mine.

Show quote history

I worked with a nurse practitioner (male) who told everyone he was a doctor, he was dangerous and I told my managers who ignored it, I said not to put me on any shifts with him, which did happen. Suddenly he disappeared , not a word was spoken about him until he was pictured on the front of the DM and was struck off!

BotterMon · 27/06/2023 13:07

Voted YABU as we are already screwed. One of the worst HC systems in the world. NHS was a wonderful idea but just doesn't work in reality.