Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

All the doctors I know are leaving. Are we going to be screwed for healthcare in 5 years time ?

334 replies

Gigihadr · 27/06/2023 12:01

Our NHS now has some of the worst health outcomes out of 19 wealthy nations compared in an international study.
But in 2010 the NHS regularly ranked 1st or 2nd in most international studies.

The UK is under-doctored, we have a 3rd fewer doctors per 1000 people than Germany or Spain

Our government response to the doctors we have left has been to erode working conditions and pay, ensure they have record levels of inflation and rocketing student debt

They are moving to better paid, better resourced systems/employers (they are a competitive international commodity) and I can’t blame them for that.

AIBU to think we are utterly screwed? why are we just sitting back and watching this slow motion car crash ?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
TokyoStories · 27/06/2023 13:37

LOLing at the level of ignorance and misinformation around PAs and ANPs on this thread.

Afishcalledwand · 27/06/2023 13:37

MissyB1 · 27/06/2023 13:32

It’s perfectly possible to have an excellent NHS and fairly paid well motivated Doctors. Why do you assume that isn’t possible? It’s all about political choices, and the public need to accept that healthcare staff aren’t working for a charity!
When my dh became a consultant in 2004, the NHS was doing well, there had been a big investment from the Government of the time, Dh felt well paid, he was able to keep on top of his workload, and was proud of what he was achieving. Waiting lists were at an all time low, he was instrumental in the rolling out of the National Bowel Cancer Screening Programme.
Then in 2010 came a new Government and austerity, very quickly the effects began to be felt, and now here we are……
Oh and he hates his job now, he’s totally burnt out, and despairs at what has become of the NHS that he used to love.

Because the percentage of the national budget that the NHS takes rises exponentially every year. It’s wholly unsustainable. Did you know that when the NHS was founded the budgets forecast that the cost of the NHS would fall over time as the populace got healthier? NHS is getting more expensive every year. The last thing this country can afford is a 35% pay rise for junior doctors.

Coldcoldheartdualipa · 27/06/2023 13:37

MrsSkylerWhite · 27/06/2023 13:08

Probably, unless there’s a change of Government next year.

Oh yes because Labour have a farm full of fully qualified medics just champing at the bit to get out there and practice 🤔

SisterDonnarix · 27/06/2023 13:38

hopeishere · 27/06/2023 13:35

@Chocolateship As long as the training is solid then why shouldn't PAs branch out? Are they not allowed to build their careers too? I think juniors should specialise earlier.

I think doctors have enjoyed the prestige of the career for a long time - they will have been top in their school, top a uni, move into a prestigious career and now hate the idea of some of that prestige being taken away.

The "training" is far from solid. It's a total farce.

Doctors have to be the brightest students for good reason: practicing medicine well is bloody hard work. The course is as long as it is for good reason, too.

Should the hospital porters be given prescribing rights too? After all, they have the right to progress their careers and doctors are elitist for objecting.

TokyoStories · 27/06/2023 13:40

SisterDonnarix · 27/06/2023 13:38

The "training" is far from solid. It's a total farce.

Doctors have to be the brightest students for good reason: practicing medicine well is bloody hard work. The course is as long as it is for good reason, too.

Should the hospital porters be given prescribing rights too? After all, they have the right to progress their careers and doctors are elitist for objecting.

😂

HostessTrolley · 27/06/2023 13:40

I'm told by my Dd (5th year med student) that the training of med students and junior doctors is being impacted by PAs - that they push in front to do stuff so the med students and junior doctors are getting to the point of being qualified without opportunities to develop clinical skills that they should be competent at.

hopeishere · 27/06/2023 13:42

The training for PAs etc must improve. Doctors can't endlessly complain they are overworked and then reject help that is offered.

Chocolateship · 27/06/2023 13:42

hopeishere · 27/06/2023 13:35

@Chocolateship As long as the training is solid then why shouldn't PAs branch out? Are they not allowed to build their careers too? I think juniors should specialise earlier.

I think doctors have enjoyed the prestige of the career for a long time - they will have been top in their school, top a uni, move into a prestigious career and now hate the idea of some of that prestige being taken away.

Because it's outside their scope of practice. Because they aren't regualted. Because they aren't subject to the same level of post qualification training, examinations and whatever else that doctors are. Because the role was meant to serve a particular purpose (of which the short training reflects). Because they can't prescribe or order scans. Because their training isn't in depth enough for them to have the appropriate knowledge and deeper understanding of some of the roles some have slipped into. Because they're often favoured because they don't rotate for example and so are more worth investing in by a ward- but that's not the fault of doctors that they aren't.

If they want the same opportunity as doctors then they should complete a medical degree. Let's be real here, would you rather a PA or a qualified and experienced GP or other doctor diagnose you?

Chocolateship · 27/06/2023 13:44

hopeishere · 27/06/2023 13:42

The training for PAs etc must improve. Doctors can't endlessly complain they are overworked and then reject help that is offered.

This is the point, they're not being utilised for the purpose the role was created for because they complain that's boring. Which is ridiculous.

SisterDonnarix · 27/06/2023 13:44

hopeishere · 27/06/2023 13:42

The training for PAs etc must improve. Doctors can't endlessly complain they are overworked and then reject help that is offered.

They aren't offering useful help.

They were meant to be assistants putting in cannulas, ordering routine bloods and writing for the consultant on the ward round whilst the juniors got on with being doctors.

Now they refuse to do any of that and want to be treated as SHO/reg level doctors, taking away training opportunities from real doctors and endangering patients.

hopeishere · 27/06/2023 13:45

If they want the same opportunity as doctors then they should complete a medical degree. Let's be real here, would you rather a PA or a qualified and experienced GP or other doctor diagnose you?

I would take a diagnosis from anyone who was qualified to make it be that a doctor or PA or whoever. Regulation etc needs addressed but like I say all of medicine needs to change.

Zarataralara · 27/06/2023 13:45

We don’t have to wait 5 years, we’re totally screwed now. Thank you Tory governments.

MissyB1 · 27/06/2023 13:45

Afishcalledwand · 27/06/2023 13:37

Because the percentage of the national budget that the NHS takes rises exponentially every year. It’s wholly unsustainable. Did you know that when the NHS was founded the budgets forecast that the cost of the NHS would fall over time as the populace got healthier? NHS is getting more expensive every year. The last thing this country can afford is a 35% pay rise for junior doctors.

Well they shouldn’t have run it down so badly should they? Yes costs increase every year anyway, but it’s a damn sight more expensive in the long run if you don’t invest! And as a society we have to accept if we want the NHS to continue (and I suspect the vast majority do) then it has to be a political and financial priority. It is possible - but will cost!

As for the 35% pay rise - don’t blame the doctors, they didn’t take the decisions to let their pay fall so far behind. That again was a political choice. Now it will cost a fortune to try and put right.

Austerity was a bloody disaster and many people warned that it would be. Take note of what is being said about this in the Covid inquiry.

Alsogoingtogetslated · 27/06/2023 13:47

Yes we are screwed. Yet there have been so many threads on here with people saying doctors are paid too much, don’t work enough hours, don’t deserve more pay etc etc

Medstudent12 · 27/06/2023 13:47

hopeishere · 27/06/2023 13:26

The pay is not rubbish. It's low at the start but there's good career progression. Why wouldn't they be paying for housing? We all do.

Also diversifying the medical field with different career routes is a good idea. Shorter career paths to get people into the workforce and specialising earlier in their career - no rotating round specialties they've no interest in.

Well the pay is rubbish if you compare us to our other nhs colleagues. We’re not on agenda for change pay scales like nurses. As I said before. The only doctors paid more per hour than some ANPs I work with are consultants. So very very senior registrars leading teams, performing surgery etc etc are on less than other team members with far less skills and experience. How is that fair? Why as doctors should we be paid less than colleagues with less responsibility for patients?

And re housing because I’ll be well into my 30s and at short notice can be told to go work 2.5 hours away in a rural area for a year. Never mind having kids in primary school. There’s no educational benefit to me working in a rural district general instead of my local district general but no one wants to work there and the physician associates etc won’t so they force the rotational registrars. So we pay a mortgage and rent for a second place. On a salary that as of 2022 was 35% less than a doctor would have got in 2008. How is that fair?

If doctors aren’t underpaid then the rest of the nhs are overpaid. They’re not. I don’t resent my colleagues being paid more per hour than me, they deserve that wage and nurses are still underpaid. But why are doctors paid less than non prescribers? When it’s the doctor taking all of the legal responsibility?

There was a telegraph article that says becoming a hospital consultant typically costs £20,000 of a junior doctors own money on exams, moving costs, professional fees, courses etc etc. My exams are compulsory. I’m sacked from my job if I fail them too many times, but I have to pay for each and every attempt (I’ve spent £4k so far).

Since 2012 graduates will pay 9% tax on everything they earn over £25k. My loan interest is so obscene that even as an nhs consultant I won’t pay it off like my previous counterparts did.

This is a hugely demanding, stressful and expensive job to do. It doesn’t matter if the public think we’re paid well enough, we’re not being paid well enough to retain us and we will leave. Being a doctor used to be a tough job that was financially rewarding. It’s still tough, but the financial rewards have dwindled.

Rotating round other specialties is useful! I’ve done surgical jobs so I can think hmmm is this acute porphyria or a surgical abdomen etc etc, we have a breadth and depth of knowledge that various associates will never have.

We train for longer, we do rigorous exams and each year we work we are doing 25% more weekly hours than them. I wish I’d become a PA! Or an ANP! They’re the smart ones. Being a doctor is not worth it, I discourage anyone who expresses an interest.

Chocolateship · 27/06/2023 13:48

hopeishere · 27/06/2023 13:45

If they want the same opportunity as doctors then they should complete a medical degree. Let's be real here, would you rather a PA or a qualified and experienced GP or other doctor diagnose you?

I would take a diagnosis from anyone who was qualified to make it be that a doctor or PA or whoever. Regulation etc needs addressed but like I say all of medicine needs to change.

PAs aren't qualified to give any diagnosis though, yet some are in positions where they make attempts to do so. On no planet would I prefer to be under the care of a PA over a doctor. That's not being rude or narrow minded, there are lots of highly capable and intelligent PAs but that doesn't mean the scope creep is damaging both to doctors who it affects and to patients.

Zarataralara · 27/06/2023 13:48

I would say the benefit to being a lowly 19th is that there is plenty of good practice to copy. If the NHS followed the way health services in France and Spain are run they’d save money and get things done.

3BSHKATS · 27/06/2023 13:49

This train has been coming over the hill at an alarming speed for the last 10 years. And it’s certainly hasn’t been helped by the recruitment process from the universities over the past three years. Two of my DD’s friends were all set to become doctors. Both the parents are doctors. It was a natural path for them to choose. Covid screwed them both over with their exam results downgraded their A levels. The universities didn’t accept them. They are both now on far easier, career path’s where they will learn much more money for a lot less stress. It is literally our loss in both cases.

3BSHKATS · 27/06/2023 13:50

hopeishere · 27/06/2023 13:45

If they want the same opportunity as doctors then they should complete a medical degree. Let's be real here, would you rather a PA or a qualified and experienced GP or other doctor diagnose you?

I would take a diagnosis from anyone who was qualified to make it be that a doctor or PA or whoever. Regulation etc needs addressed but like I say all of medicine needs to change.

I’ve only ever had to deal with a PA once, and their diagnosis and suggestion was utterly wrong and inappropriate and luckily I was assertive enough to insist on meeting the GP.

As a direct result of that interaction, I bought private medical insurance that day.

Medstudent12 · 27/06/2023 13:51

@hopeishere I’m a doctor and wary of PAs. Particularly the ODPs who do a two year cause to be anaesthetic associates. Anaesthetists are known for being intelligent, skilled and having some of the hardest post grad exams of all specialties. When things go wrong in anaesthetics it’s life or death, in minutes, they command a lot of respect from other specialties. If I need an anaesthetic I want a doctor doing it, I’ve worked with other professions/associates. They’re great, but they’re not a doctor and many are working outside their scope currently.

SisterDonnarix · 27/06/2023 13:51

Chocolateship · 27/06/2023 13:48

PAs aren't qualified to give any diagnosis though, yet some are in positions where they make attempts to do so. On no planet would I prefer to be under the care of a PA over a doctor. That's not being rude or narrow minded, there are lots of highly capable and intelligent PAs but that doesn't mean the scope creep is damaging both to doctors who it affects and to patients.

It doesn't actually matter how intelligent a PA is.

There are many highly intelligent people with PhDs in specialist areas. That doesn't mean they should waltz into A&E after watching a view PowerPoint presentations and start managing sick patients.

You need a medical degree to practice medicine. End of story.

Pearlsaminga · 27/06/2023 13:53

nameschangg · 27/06/2023 12:12

i think we are already screwed with the ageing population issue.

Surely this applies worldwide?

Chocolateship · 27/06/2023 13:54

SisterDonnarix · 27/06/2023 13:51

It doesn't actually matter how intelligent a PA is.

There are many highly intelligent people with PhDs in specialist areas. That doesn't mean they should waltz into A&E after watching a view PowerPoint presentations and start managing sick patients.

You need a medical degree to practice medicine. End of story.

I know, hence my posts...

SisterDonnarix · 27/06/2023 13:55

Medstudent12 · 27/06/2023 13:51

@hopeishere I’m a doctor and wary of PAs. Particularly the ODPs who do a two year cause to be anaesthetic associates. Anaesthetists are known for being intelligent, skilled and having some of the hardest post grad exams of all specialties. When things go wrong in anaesthetics it’s life or death, in minutes, they command a lot of respect from other specialties. If I need an anaesthetic I want a doctor doing it, I’ve worked with other professions/associates. They’re great, but they’re not a doctor and many are working outside their scope currently.

Yes, it's funny how anaesthetic trainees have to pass such rigorous exams with extensive knowledge of physics and chemistry required, yet an ODP can be let loose with intubation and independently manage someone under anaesthesia without ever having to sit a proper medical exam.

Chocolateship · 27/06/2023 13:55

Admittedly realised my post should say doesn't mean it ISNT damaging.

Swipe left for the next trending thread