Is behaviour out of control in a lot of schools?

[Sophie12319]

Not sure whether to move DD (10) to another school. Everyday she's coming home saying she can't learn as there are a group of boys who throw stuff about the classroom, shout out when the teacher is talking, walk about the classroom in lesson. She has said teacher has sent them to headteacher in the past but it carries on.

This is not a teacher bashing thread btw (in fact, I have the upmost respect for DD's teacher as I have seen the boys behaviour at the school gate and I don't know how she does a whole day), maybe more of a parent bashing of why some parents let their kids behave like this?

Anyway, back to the point of thread, I spoke to my sister about moving her to which she said there's no point as he DS' school is the same.
Feel a bit hopeless as I feel DD's education is being ruined! I've emailed the school before about their behaviour but I feel at a loss!

I don't know about 'out of control' but behaviour does seem to be at an all time low in schools at the moment and markedly so post Covid. There are so many factors at play here but I think massive underfunding over many years has played a huge part. There is just no money any more for adequate numbers of TAs in classrooms, intervention for pupils who struggle and/or any of the 'curriculum enrichment' activities that used to go on previously. Older and more experienced teachers are viewed as 'too expensive' and are being managed out/replaced my newly qualified ones. The academisation of schools now run as businesses has a lot to answer for here.

Constant teacher bashing in the press about lazy, workshy teachers with their 'long holidays and gold plated pensions' ("how dare they go on strike for better pay and conditions?!") does not exactly help. The profession seems to be held in the lowest possible regard by both Government and a significant number of parents too sadly, hence desperately low morale and staff leaving in droves. As a consequence there is, unsurprisingly, a recruitment crisis looming that is being roundly ignored by those in a position to do anything about it.

Due to difficulties in filling vacant posts children are being taught by non-specialists who do their best under really difficult circumstances, but ultimately some pupils are inevitably being massively failed here. My own, who has just finished her GCSEs, has had a thoroughly miserable time for the past couple of years for all the reasons mentioned elsewhere already - large class sizes, poor behaviour and the focus being entirely on exams, exams, exams with testing every other week and nothing else on the school calendar to break up the monotony and general drudgery. Those of an anxious disposition and keen to do well find the pressure all but intolerable. The less academically able simply give up, tune out and mess around in class time.

Before anyone assumes - no, I am not a teacher. I have nothing but respect for the profession however but under the current circumstances/working conditions that staff have to endure, choosing this as a possible career path is the very last thing that I would advise my child to consider ...and therein lies the problem. Who is going to be available to, and want to, teach future generations of children?

@Macaroni46 is completely correct.

Parents don't always realise what is expected of their children/teachers in class.

Those moments to breath/get to know your children/have fun/play/make etc should all be part and parcel of the School experience.

My yr 5 child is soooo fed up of the "learn about x in English Monday, find the features Tuesday, plan it Wednesday, write it Thursday, corrections Friday." That's been every day of school.in upper primary. It's taking all the joy out of reading amd comprehension.

And that's just one subject. Kids are being treated like robots with end product expected and then we're surprised when they need to move about/break free. Or the rise in MH issues...

"Getting the kids to do the work feels like it's getting harder. My experience with Y11 and also reported from colleagues and across twitter was that this cohort of Y11s were incredibly apathetic.

What do we do about that?"

So, to be clear, this isn't a 'dig' at the poster who wrote this. This isn't a 'dig' at all you teachers, who do an absolutely thankless task to teach our kids. this is just 1 child/1 teacher/1 school situation but I wonder if this might help answer your question about apathy in children if you multiply it by 1 child/1teacher/1school throughout the UK. And my DC is someone who really wants to learn/get on/get to Uni.

1. DC has just completed Y13 and A levels at the 6th form of their previous senior school. Teachers were regularly taken from the Y12/13 classrooms to cover Y11 because of staff absenteeism/illness and basically not having sufficient teachers. My DC was told by one of these teachers that Y11 was more important than the Y13 because those kids were going through their GCSE's!! What about DC's A -levels? They clearly weren't as important?

2. During Y13, in general one teacher would ask the whole class what they wanted to revise/go over to make sure they were happy with their knowledge prior to the exams they had so when a question was asked by a pupil about the topic/subject or a question was asked about the exam technique required and this teacher would just wave a dismissive hand and say 'look that up in the text book; that's what it's for' or 'we've been through this before, I'm not repeating myself'. Now, whilst I can understand a teacher's frustration of going over a topic again and thinking 'for gods sake! if you listened the first time properly we wouldn't be repeating ourselves!', the teacher had actually asked how they could help the kids?!!

3. and worst, often the response to a question would be 'oh I can't be arsed with that'. (My DC has this recorded on a mobile phone as it was during one of the worst lessons they'd had with this teacher so wanted to prove to me they weren't lying.)

4. DC being given mock exams to do with the promise of being marked by the teacher when the teacher would then say 'oh I didn't get round to the marking; do it yourself' (again, sympathy with the teacher who was quite possibly over-stretched and felt the Y13 mock exam paper was the least of their worries)

5. Throughout Y13, there was at least 1 lesson cancelled every week for each of the 3 topics my DC studied; often last minute with only a brief email as to what they needed to catch up on during the missed lesson.

So yeah, I wonder why (Y11)Y13's are so apathetic?
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As for the OP's original question, I'm not sure it's got worse as it was horrendous when I was in school in the 80's with the 'remedial' class, no diagnosis of ADHD or Autism etc; everyone had to muck in together and physical abuse (board rubbers lobbed from 10 feet away at your head) and verbal abuse (you! fat kid, come here!!) from the teachers.

But when my DC came home to say that she'd been slapped in the face (for no reason; backed up by a TA walking by at the time) by a lad with a ruler and nothing was done about, despite her reporting him I did phone the school. And during the phone call, the Head of Year laughed at me and said 'oh it's just his way of saying that he fancies your DC (I kid you not); don't think anything of it'. That's when it all went a bit nuclear...

That's a very good point

Now it's 18.

16 was better for some

How bloody awful for your child!! And so frustrating for you to be constantly stone-walled! I can't even begin to understand how Ofsted, governors etc just ignored it all. Just shocking. I hope your child is happier elsewhere.

@Icandothis1970 I understand why a pupil might be apathetic in a subject where they’ve had no teacher or a teacher who can’t be arsed, that’s understandable.

But they are not being arsed in subjects where they do have a solid, experienced teacher who marks their work and teaches them properly. In core subjects.

Totally agree about Gove’s ridiculous 2014 ‘overhaul’. All he did was make it into a Victorian style curriculum unfit for today’s children. (And yes they are digital natives, meaning they are born into a disguise world). Over-focus on boring, dry grammar and meaningless stuff.
Agree too with how much pressure it puts on schools, teachers and the kids. It just adds to the list of other problems outlined in this thread.
I couldn’t be part of it anymore either and I left teaching and pulled my own DC out too.

Yeah, it must be disheartening and frustrating for those (majority) teachers who try to do their job for kids who just aren't bloody interested. It's no wonder so many want to leave with kids attitudes these days and without back up from HT or the parents.

I teach yr6 & they are VILE to each other & have zero empathy towards their peers or us adults - despite our constant efforts to enlighten them
How is that a surprise to parents! You have just to read the numerous threads about kids making intolerable noise in garden and the vast majority of parents considering their kids should be entitled to do what they want, be as loud as they care to be regardless of the impact on others.

If they are being told that any disturbing behaviour at home is ok and tough if it stresses the neighbours, how can they be expected to respect others, adults and children in schools?

Parents let their kids be selfish telling them it's their right to be so. Kids listen and couldn't care less about others whatever the environment they're in.

My comprehensive school was dreadful even decades ago. Nearly 2000 pupils, constant talking bad behaviour and disruption. The irony was that it was held up as a beacon for mixed ability learning , and we had people visiting from across the country. I remember trying to listen and learn, it was hopeless.
Last time I looked it had gone from special measures to being shut down.

today bad behaviour seems the norm. All my teacher friends are planning their exits. Additional Resources seem to be non existent, class sizes larger, many children out of control. sanctions ineffective and seldom applied.
it’s a bad environment for teachers and those children that want to learn.

I went for a walk about 3:30pm yesterday and saw some primary school kids in school uniforms (year 6?) smoking elf bars in an underpass. My older teen son has mentioned seeing this too but I was really shocked.
I often see teenagers/young adults smoking weed in underpasses but never primary school kids. They didn't react to me walking past either.

You sound like you have an amazing story 💕 and an inspiration to those around you. I found Ur comment very encouraging.

Sorry, that should read we are not ALL English.

This is the same Scottish Government that has a policy of non-custodial sentences for rapists, as long as they're under 25. I despair.

"You are getting me mixed up with someone else." How ridiculous. My teens have more maturity than you. You. Were. Wrong.

How ironic that you said this in response to me @Distract when it was not me who said "you are getting me mixed up with someone else". So you mixed up my posts with somebody who presumably said that to you. 😆

Seriously. Beyond ridiculous.

it seems the issues in secondary are a lot to do with dc that are bored and don't want to learn. Those dc would have left school at 14 years ago.

Except that there are plenty of problems even with 11-13 year-olds!

I was talking to some v middle class parents of secondary school children who all denied that their child would be doing the things that teachers had said they were doing. Nothing major, but the low level disruption that teachers find so difficult. All of them: 'I know little Janie/Jonny, they're no angel but they wouldn't do X'. I was flabbergasted - do they really think little Janie/Jonny behaves at school exactly as they do at home?
I do believe that the lack of investment in education over so many years now means that teachers and education are now less valued in our horrendously overly capitalised society. I'm sure many would deny it, but we do 'value' people who earn a lot of money - look at all the attention given to 5 millionaires who chose to do something knowing the risk involved - their lives were, by society as a whole, valued more than the hundreds who die attempting to migrate.

I've dealt with a couple of high level behaviour incidents today. Frustrating, concerning, yes. Nowhere near as exhausting as dealing lesson in, lesson out with low level disruption and being constantly talked over, and nowhere near as impctful on the rest of the class. It drains the life out of you having to start the same sentence 17 times. Each 9/10 hour day at work feels more like 36 hours long at the moment.

I too have huge respect for teachers and I am one!
You are misunderstanding what I mean about learning styles. I’m not talking about individual teachers abilities to differentiate or deliver interesting lessons I’m taking about SCHOOL as a concept. Sitting down at a desk for 6 hours a day for 12 years of their life with a pencil in hand (ok I know they have practical science lessons, cooking etc for a short time but these also include much writing afterwards) just does not suit most people.

I think it’s a great idea to remove the disruptive ones in a sense. Put them to task on chopping wood, building something, making things with their hands, being creative, learning practical life skills, plumbing, electrics, bricklaying, cooking, caring work etc etc. We don’t need all kids to come out of school with 9 GCSEs that they have been forced to do. We need young people with skills. Yes we all need basic literacy and numeracy but we don’t need everyone to be academic.

@picturethispatsy this is why grammar schools were a good idea. Good for social mobility (when they existed everywhere so you did not need to live in an expensive area to access one) because all academic children could have a chance to access a decent quality academic education. The solution should have been to provide equal quality vocational and creative courses for non-academic students leading to technical and skilled apprenticeships like in Germany or schools that specialise in specific subjects from age 14 like in several other countries, so children can apply to one that suits their interests, talents and skills. Not throw everyone in together.

I remember one comp I went to deliberately unstreaming us into classes to make sure each one had every ability level in. It was obvious the result if this ethos/ ideology was going to be that nobody gets a decent education of achieves their potential. Then add in funding schools half or less of what they need, and here we are.

It is a shambles and it's not like we have to reinvent the wheel. Plenty of our European neighbours have decent state education systems and don't have these widespread behaviour issues.

Sadly they get worse at secondary!

My daughter described some of the kids behaviour after covid lockdowns as feral!…. She found it really hard readjusting to school and being with kids who just didn’t know how to behave! We had to pull her out of school for a whole week because she was sat next to a boy that was kicking and bruising her!… and the school had some ridiculous rule about them only being able to move tables on a Monday! (Of course they couldn’t actually discipline the aggressor!)
Going into seniors has been awful, kids too scared to use the loos because kids are fighting/vaping etc in them.
They say our children will be the first generation to be outlived by their parents… I’m not surprised with kids vaping at 11!

My son had a similar experience to your daughter and I used the same word- feral. The classroom is like a playground, toilets full of kids vaping so he avoids going if he can, stopped eating at lunchtime because he was so anxious and now has no interest in learning. It's so sad. On top of this, trying to get him off his games console in the evening is a nightmare, seems his friends are staying on all hours, so then he doesn't want to come off only the threat of unplugging it works! Wish the other parents would have a go, makes it bloody difficult for me...

Some of these kids will definitely have unmet needs. My daughter has autism, which wasn’t picked up on by any of the teachers in either of her schools. After a period of bullying by her peers, her behaviour was off the wall and disruptive but prior to the bullying, she masked and was very well behaved in class.

I agree that the majority of kids are not suited to such a prescriptive education system. Many of them would be far better off learning practical skills and not chained to a desk.

My daughter has autism, which wasn’t picked up on by any of the teachers in either of her schools.

Why didn't you tell them rather than waiting for them to 'pick up on it's?

It’s very hard to pick up autism in girls. My DD was totally fine at home, but apparently was incredibly withdrawn at school. Being an only child I didn’t see the issues as clearly as I should have. It was quickly picked up on in secondary. I think you expect that experienced teachers might see something more than ‘shyness’. I had no experience of autism apart from children with more pronounced symptoms, I wasn’t really aware this was what it was like.

YANBU to say behaviour in schools is getting worse.

I’ve worked as a TA in secondary schools for many years, and in my current school, the girls are just as bad as the boys - our Y7s and 8s are the worst.

The main problems are; answering back to everything, defiance, refusal to put phones away, talking over the teacher constantly, any old excuse to not do any work, total lack of respect to adults and peers, bullying and name-calling to other students….. I could go on.

Not every lesson is like this thankfully, but plenty are. We have some delightful kids, who I totally enjoy working with. But the bad lessons are getting more frequent, and highly frustrating for the students who actually want to learn and do well.

We also have the age-old problem
of obscenely short skirts, where the girls do not seem to care that you can see everything! The latest craze by a handful of girls, is not wearing a skirt at all, but just strutting round school in some skimpy Lycra ‘short shorts’, again they are provocative and revealing imo.

Thank goodness my own DC went to school approx ten years ago, when things were so much better in state education. I worry about any future grandchildren though.

I loved my job a few years ago, but can’t wait to retire now.