Is behaviour out of control in a lot of schools?

[Sophie12319]

Not sure whether to move DD (10) to another school. Everyday she's coming home saying she can't learn as there are a group of boys who throw stuff about the classroom, shout out when the teacher is talking, walk about the classroom in lesson. She has said teacher has sent them to headteacher in the past but it carries on.

This is not a teacher bashing thread btw (in fact, I have the upmost respect for DD's teacher as I have seen the boys behaviour at the school gate and I don't know how she does a whole day), maybe more of a parent bashing of why some parents let their kids behave like this?

Anyway, back to the point of thread, I spoke to my sister about moving her to which she said there's no point as he DS' school is the same.
Feel a bit hopeless as I feel DD's education is being ruined! I've emailed the school before about their behaviour but I feel at a loss!

No-one's mentioned go-karting.

How dare you - HOW DARE YOU - insinuate that my child was asking for it or in any way deserves a daily beating! Want to know why he gets beaten up? Cause he’s autistic and socially awkward and therefore endlessly picked on. A child at the neighbouring school in a similar situation killed themselves earlier this year. . My child would manage perfectly well in mainstream education if these little shits had any form of consequences for their actions but they don’t, resulting in my child suffering from depression. Oh but that will be my fault according to you too! And I am supposed to show compassion???? That ship sailed many, many, many moths ago!

People have commented that pupils lash out because they have terrible homelifes. What about all the kids who aren't disruptive and have horrendous homelifes?

I've read here that the disruptive ones get someone to listen to them, get a nice activity and are praised. Meanwhile the disruptive pupils often bully the quiet kids that are also dealing with bad homes.

Bad homes doesn't automatically mean bad behaviour and they shouldn't be rewarded.

School is a just a mirror of what is happening in society in general. Take a look around everything has deteriorated over the past 10 to 15 years. The issues you describe do seem extreme but these kids are learning this behaviour in the home on the streets. Austerity and then covid has had a detrimental impact on society. I work in a disadvantaged area have done for the past 18 years I have never known it so bad, the issues people are dealing with day to day are just shocking I personally would have given up years ago. I feel that the impact from cut backs to services over the past 15 years is now beginning to show. None of this helps the poor teachers trying to deal with behaviour in schools which has escalated at a time when the supports available for these children have diminished, perfect storm imo.

One question I do have though is around the age kids start secondary. In Ireland kids have an 8 year primary cycle so generally start secondary school around 13 years old. Do you think longer in a primary school setting may help? are they quite young going into a secondary school environment just as they are beginning to get to an age where they are harder to manage bevahioural wise? Don't know if it would, just worth considering because a lot of the behaviour described was with 11 years olds, in Ireland they would still be in primary for another couple of years where maybe some of these behaviours could be managed better because the teachers would know them, classes would be smaller and the school smaller

It doesn’t matter what you do in school if it’s not followed through at home. I’ve known parents call up to specifically say they are not to be called about bad behaviour/exclusions as they do not care. That’s schools problem.
Students getting picked up for exclusions or parents in for behavioural meetings and the parents saying ‘you don’t have to listen to the teacher, I’ve told you this’. Students who’ve been permanently excluded and been offered alternative school, parents ring to complain we should be transporting them. Parents who’ve been spoon fed and pandered to are shocked when it stops.

schools have no power anyway. Like I said I worked for one HT who took no shit. His policy was ‘my way or the highway’. But it was a dangerous balance with pandering to OFSTED and keeping exclusions low.

Wasn’t aware parents had to allow detentions, didn’t work like that when I was at school. Maybe they should be fined if the kids don’t turn up. Or have their child benefit stopped.

I’ve done the same, soft parenting gets taken advantage of by some children and my son was an expert in the manipulation of teachers it seemed. The whole of London probably heard that bollocking but he hasn’t tried anything like that since (this was years ago, he’d been really rude to a teacher about his teaching style and then continued to disrupt the whole lesson in an act of defiance), the headteacher shook my hand as I left and expressed her gratitude. All the teachers had to do after that was threaten to call me and he’d fix up sharpish

My other children reacted positively to softer approaches and I have never had to repeat that episode (thank God!).

That poster is desperate to portray all kids as saints. I have not come across these behaviour but believe the stories of parents and teachers on this thread. Clearly there are kids without special needs who are being vile at school and their parents ignore it facilitate it. It is really odd of to be evangelis

Ugh posted too soon. So many typos.

It is odd of UsernameAlreadyTaken101 to be evangelising about her theory and argue that all naughty kids are just misunderstood poor souls. It’s clear that some kids just behave horribly because they can.

And saying that all poor behaviour is due to lack of resourcing of SEN is insulting to families with SEN kids. Many of these children behave well and have families who put huge amounts of effort into supporting their kids to attend school and understand boundaries.

One poster at least on this thread implies that all badly behaved kids have trauma or SEN. Whilst SEN is very under-resourced and many are struggling, I am sure teachers are aware that a lot of the worst behaviour is not coming just from that pupil group.

I mentioned that disruptive kids at the school I went to got extra privileges. I didn't specify what these privileges were, but go-karting was among them.

I had an awful home life. From an early age I came to school to escape home and study hard so I could get my exams and leave home one day. I had no friends so school was all about me working hard. If I was at one of the schools here, as a quiet sad child, I would be ignored and have disrupted lessons and would be even unhappier. I never lashed out. I just wanted to be invisible. Where is the support for children like that?

I’m really surprised that more people don’t home educate. I suppose society is set up to rely on two incomes, so it’s an enormous sacrifice to stay home to home school. The UK also doesn’t have a homeschooling culture like in the USA.

I have lots of friends in the USA who homeschool. As a teacher, I used to be really judgemental towards them and thought they were a bit crazy to be honest. Now, when I see their small homeschooling coops, and watch as their kids graduate and go to university, I’ve done a complete 180. I think they did the right thing.

Like I said, I’m seriously considering doing it for my DC once they hit secondary.

This is not a popular opinion for a teacher, so I’ll probably get slammed for it.

Well sadly that was my exact experience of high school, like you I was trying to escape difficult circumstances at home. But school wasn’t a safe haven either. I didn’t take out my problems on other kids, so why should we justify other kids doing that?

My daughter, who will be 5 next month, is due to start primary school in September.

She is diagnosed ASD with complex needs and has a rare chromosomal disorder.

In recent weeks, we've had to clad her entirely in her sun suits, as its the only item of clothing she owns which she cannot remove herself. She is also doubly incontinent.

After two years of fighting for a specialist school place and having succeeded in getting our previous LA to name the school type on her EHCP as ''specialist', our current LA have decided mainstream will do just fine for her.

I'm going to have to restart the appeals process to force them to name a specialist school, which is likely to take a minimum of 12 months - in the meantime, she needs a school place as we can no longer afford for me to stay home with her, either financially nor emotionally.

My parents cannot help out - they're still of working age and need to work. Her paternal grandparents are in their mid 70s and live in a different part of the country.

She is going to be disruptive. The schools being consulted with do not have enough teaching assistants for her year group, let alone her class. To me, it seems the LA have completely ignored all the reports on my daughter and are just throwing out consults with any old school.

I have no idea how any of these schools would cope with her. I struggle with her at home, too.

It all feels very Hunger Games - ''may the odds be ever in your favour''.

I'm not saying this is the case for all disruptive kids in schools but as has been parroted on this thread, there are plenty of children like mine who are now in mainstream education when they really shouldn't be.

It does vary by school, I'd actually recommend looking for one which has had a really awful ofsted report in recent years. They often get more support to improve and smaller classes as some parents are put off. DS goes to a school which has a bad reputation but its bloody brilliant- small class sizes, teaching staff are all experienced as it was highlighted on the previous report they were lacking this, decent resources for SEN children, lots of parent volunteers as it's very much a community as appose a big multi entry school. Realise this isn't always the case, but everyone thought we were crazy when we applied there.

There may well be all kinds of things going on at home. However does it really help these boys to think they are in control and can run riot. Perhaps the support they need is actually to know that someone else is in charge, that they must behave themselves. Ultimately they need to leave school with some qualifications if they are to have a better life. Letting them just run amok isn't doing any favours in the long run. They will just end up in jail.

There are always some teachers who can manage these difficult pupils and some who struggle - not blaming the teachers here - it's just an observation - but clearly it isn't that these pupils are incapable of behaving, whatever their other issues. (excepting a small minority who are downright dangerous of course - I am talking about the majority of disruptive pupils).

Surely most secondary schools only set for maths, english, maybe science? They don't use sets for history, geography, PE, RE etc. So there won't be much chance to escape.

Exactly. The pupils who are quiet and good are not necessarily having an easy life, doubtless made an awful lot worse by the dread of having to try and learn in a chaotic environment.

Pupils need to behave or be removed in my opinion. The reason for their behaviour can be addressed away from the majority who just want to learn and enjoy school. I am sure that most of these disruptive pupils can behave much better if the school is enabled to implement stricter behavioural policies and if parents support the school. It's weird that education is not valued by so many parents in the UK.

To add though I don't think parents should just accept their child being hit etc because the other child might have a crappy homelife. It's certainly unfortunate and not necessarily the child's fault, but I'm pretty sure if anyone was having their child dread school because they were hit etc daily then they wouldn't go aw that's okay.

It was Alton Towers when I was at school (back in the 90s)

When I started at the school it was well run by an old school head teacher (strict but benevolent) and two deputy heads one of whom was universally feared.

He retired after a couple of years, a new touchy feely head came in, sent all the naughty kids on fun days out, discipline measures much reduced, school rapidly declined, about 50% of the teachers left, it went into special measures a few years later. He did also introduce a much smarter uniform involving blazers (we just used to wear polo shirts and a choice of plain coloured jumpers). Strangely the smart uniform co-incided with worse behaviour and declining standards!

Poor Mental health is at least partially to blame.

I’m so sick of being compassionate. So sick of it. ‘I’m sorry wee jimmy has punched your son every day for a term but he’s in foster care’. I dont give a shit. He shouldn’t be in a school if he can’t help but punch his classmates. If someone walked down the street punching people there would be consequences. Kids that do this have no place in mainstream school ms whatsoever. Have some compassion to the victims of this endless violence.

This is my view on it, too. My DC in YR1 at a supposedly nice school was recently the victim of a dangerous and vicious unprovoked attack when he already had a broken arm (unrelated injury). It is totally unacceptable and I hit the roof. The line that should not be crossed is that no child - or staff member - should be expected to tolerate any type of behaviour that would result in HR disciplinary action in a workplace or a police report if in a public area. Why should children tolerate this if an adult would not? Education is also a human right so if some children cannot participate in it without taking that right away from others by disrupting it, then they must be removed and alternative provision for them made. Both of these points should be completely non-negotiable, otherwise everyone is being failed including the disruptive or violent children themselves who are not being taught appropriate boundaries.

I made both of these points very clearly to school and that I expect appropriate measures with actual consequences for behaviour to be implemented to ensure this doesn't happen again because it constitutes a safeguarding risk and failure in their duty of care. I think all parents whose DC are being impacted must do similarly and keep complaining, daily if necessary, if appropriate changes are not introduced. I feel so sorry for teachers putting up with this and Heads needs to grow a backbone regardless of Ofsted's opinion on it.

While I'm sympathetic to parents of children with behavioural issues - one of my own has problems - I address these through significant interventions and work on emotional regulation etc. And would come down like a ton of bricks and implement significant consequences at home and expect school to do the same if they were behaving in such a way at school, although obviously appropriate adjustments to classroom environments need to be made for SEN needs. I expect school to have zero tolerance of any violence, intimidation or disruption and will complain every single time if not dealt with appropriately, otherwise by YR3/4 of course it will be like managing a zoo. Fortunately in our case it was taken seriously and appears to have been stamped on. It's ridiculous for parents to have to point out this responsibility to Heads etc but necessary it seems.

In my view at least half of the problem is the utter incompetence and failure of the "children's services" part of social services in most areas and schools having to pick up what they should be addressing. Again, unacceptable and parents need to pressure to make it clear that schools' job is to teach academic learning, not to parent. There is no pressure politically that I have seen to fund children's services properly. Parents should also lobby MPs for this.

It would be interesting to see an analysis of how much of the meagre budget for state education per child is actually being spent on their education (building maintenance, percentage of time of teaching staff and classroom support staff and spending on educational resources) and how much on "pastoral care" and dealing with disruption. There needs to be proper accontability for this as I suspect that for many non-disruptive children they are not even getting the tiny budget per head for them spent on their education but a significant proportion reallocated to deal with matters related to other pupils that are not within the remit of a school, which is a scandal given per-pupil funding is so low anyway.

One final point: several posts from PPs who are teachers stated that in the 80s/ 90s support was in place. I had the misfortune due to family circumstances to attend a number of primary and secondary schools during this period in different parts of the UK. I and my sibling are autistic and were also suffering abuse and not ONE of the very many teachers we encountered noticed, we were given no support whatsoever in terms of CAMHS, partoral care, adjustments, classroom assistants, referral for diagnosis, police or social services involvement, basic safeguarding or even a friendly chat and some sympathy. So no, things were not really better then, either. Classroom disruptiom was also rife then, with an incredibly slow pace of learning, unchecked bullying, drug use, violence to staff and other pupils and even arson in one school. UK schools are diabolical in general, have been for many, many years and wholescale change is needed.

What an awful situation for you and for her, and the other children who will be in her class, and the teachers.

Again it is the local authorities utterly failing. Children's services should have been largely involved with sorting this out. LAs refuse to fund the specialist schools required.

If it was me I would not send her to the mainstream school because you can prove this does not meet her needs so the LA is depriving her of an education. There are advocacy services who can help you challenge them and carer's support charities who are very good.

The only way to deal with what purports to be "children's services" and their LA paymasters seems to be to both report them to the Ombudsman, and also to point out to them their legal responsibilities and that the alternative will cost them much more i.e. you cannot send her to a mainstream school so that option is off the table (presume you've provided all the evidence of why obviously and pointed out they have no qualifications or contrary evidence to overrule medical professionals' assessments); you will be going back to work; and therefore your DD will be at home alone with nobody to care for her at all so their only two options are: a) provide the specialist school place she requires so that you can continue meeting all of her other needs outside school hours; or b) they will then have to provide full residential care for her that will cost them far, far more.

Then ask them to pick a) or b).

The only way all of this will change is if parents stop standing for this nonsense and know the law and enforce it. It is exhausting though and you have my sympathy, having fought my own battles with these incompetents.

I know many people in the teaching profession in the UK and the stories they tell about pupil behaviour are horrific. Most of them are leaving the profession this year.

I wasn't raised here and I don't want to romanticise schooling in my home country, but behaviour towards teachers in class was impeccable. Some of the things that happened when a pupil tried to be abusive to teachers: they failed entire school subjects (which has to be retaken over summer), repeated years, were told to leave the lesson and bring their parents to school (it was very shameful to receive a call at work that you need to go in to deal with your kid's behaviour, and you always had to go immediately), or, if all else failed, they were sent to special schools for kids with violent behaviour, which were very harsh and it was, again, extremely shameful to families to be known as having someone there.

Even the most unpleasant bullies were usually respectful to teachers, because they wanted to stay in mainstream school with their year group. We also had a separate Behaviour grade; anything else but maximum grade would affect your prospects for the rest of your life. For example, you couldn't apply to Med school if you had less than max Behaviour grade at any point in your school career. We had no uniforms and detention didn't exist, because the whole idea was that you wanted to be in school to have any chance at a decent life later on, and the punishment was to be kicked out.

Does some of that sound dystopian to UK parents? I suspect it does, and perhaps it is, I'm not suggesting it should be imitated. But what are the consequences for bad behaviour in a UK school? What can the teacher actually do? If the answer is "not much", then how can the problem even be fixed?

Also, do kids really get a chance of decent life from school nowadays? Is it of any actual use to them? Could working hard in school get some of them out of poverty for example? Or are we asking them to conform to rules that have become obsolete and have no benefit in the current late-stage capitalism degradation of society? Kids may be young, but they can smell bullshit, and perhaps being at home over lockdowns highlighted the "bullshit" part of the modern school proposition.

It used to be okay here, I remember even the hardened bullies of the year group fearing being told off by the headmaster and having a phone call home.