To think that people like anti-abortionist Kristan Hawkins are the enemy of women and feminism everywhere

[Purplefoxes]

Maybe extreme but..I was just reading this BBC article (link below) on Kristan Hawkins and it made my blood boil as I am pro choice. She is the woman from the US organisation Students for Life of America and has been instrumental in over turning Roe v Wade. She is now on the back of this 'success' campaigning for total abortion ban across America . The overturning of Roe V Wade is a decision which will likely result in the death or debilitation of many pregnant women who either cannot access much needed abortions for health reasons or try to access back street illegal abortions or could even commit suicide as a result. Not to mention there could be many unwanted children dumped into the care system or brought up in abusive environments. I just cannot fathom why anyone, let alone a woman would do this. I'm sure if it was one of her kids who was pregnant and needed a medical abortion to save their life she'd change her tune! How blinkered does a person have to be to not think of the impact of banning abortion on both women and children! And how has such medieval policy been allowed to happen in modern day America..could this happen in the UK?! Are we losing our rights as women? When did the life of a fetus become more important than the life of its mother?

BBC article

@eggsbenedict23 if I understand you correctly you would force women carrying a child with anencephaly or Edwards syndrome to have that child, knowing it would die? Now that's what I call abhorrent.

@eggsbenedict23 if you propose to change the law so that abortion is only when the mother's life is in danger...where do you draw that line exactly? Because in the case of ectopic pregnancy (and I use this example because it's one people have usually heard about and more common) the woman's life is not technically in danger until her tubes rupture and she has internal bleeding. It is known however as soon as the scan shows the egg has implanted in the wrong place that it cannot survive and the mother's health is at risk if the pregnancy grows. The earlier it is discovered the best chance to operate and remove it leaving the woman and her fertility intact. There is a chance the fetus will spontaneously abort naturally but also a chance not. At what point do you allow the abortion then? Wait until the mother is in medical crisis? By which time it may be too late to save her? The point is every pregnancy is unique and in order to impose the ban you suggest you would have to have legislation which could cover every single scenario. Not possible. This is why doctors are waiting so long in the US for fear of being sued or sent to prison. By the time it's obvious to even an idiot a woman needs the abortion and the doctor can't be sued, it may be too late for the woman to be saved or she may need a hysterectomy. That is not fair and it's not ethical practice either.

That might be what you're saying, but it isn't what the PP I was answering was saying.

With ectopic pregnancy since there's no way the mother survives if the pregnancy continues. The fertilised egg should be removed ASAP

@eggsbenedict23 I notice you said egg but by the time the woman realises she is pregnant and starts to get pain and bleeding from that ectopic implanted fertilised egg she could be 8 weeks or more along. I had a scan at 8 weeks in my last pregnancy, it looks more like a foetus at this stage and indeed that's when the medical profession starts calling it that, there was a heart beat detectable in my case. The NHS only normally give you a scan at 12 weeks. In America right now, at least 13 states completely ban abortion, some don't ban but have no access to abortion clinics, 1 state bans abortion at 6 weeks/heart rate being seen and another at 12. The rest are varying degrees up to viability of the foetus, see map below. Just shows you how archaic it is to legislate for, that there can be such variation between states. If you are unfortunate enough to have an ectopic pregnancy AND live in one of the states that bans abortion, and you have a Dr who refuses to operate for fear of being accused of illegal abortion what exactly are you going to do? In what other circumstance does the law essentially prohibit a Dr from saving someone's life?!

With ectopic pregnancy since there's no way the mother survives if the pregnancy continues. The fertilised egg should be removed ASAP

So whether a 10w foetus is a baby deserving of a gestational carrier and birth regardless of any other considerations, or a fertilised egg to be disposed of depends upon where it embeds?

Many womens lives are in danger though. Maternal deaths due to post partum suicide have risen significantly in the US.

Or do we only care about women when they are pregnant and not women after they are pregnant? Or do we not really care about them at all.

Weren't you the poster telling others off for saying foetus about unwanted pregnancies, saying they should be called babies? But in the case where you think abortion is justified, you're now calling it a fertilised egg? Or was that someone else?

If it's embedded in a place where it simply can't survive and the mother's life is in danger. Yes the solution is removal.

For post-partum suicide the better course of treatment would be counselling and therapy.

counselling (that they pay for presumably) Because you can just re-educate women to be grateful they weee forced to bear and birth a child they don’t want to or can’t provide for.

I carried a baby to close to full term knowing there was a 95% chance she was going to be born dead.

I was offered zero counselling or therapy on the NHS, but even when I accessed this privately it still took a long time to get over it. Your flippant remark just demonstrates your lack of understanding of mental health and suicide.

I would absolutely never judge any woman given the odds I was given choosing for an earlier abortion to avoid some (a tiny bit) of the trauma and heartache.

In my case I knew if my baby went to full term they would be healthy which absolutely informed my decision.

But people who think its okay to force women to carry babies to full term knowing that the only thing that awaits that baby is an incredible short very pain filled life are cruel.

Give a mother a choice between an earlier, painless for the baby, and a painfilled short life many mothers would choose the abortion because they want the best thing for their child. Forcing them to put that baby through unnecessary pain and suffering and then casually suggesting counselling will fix it is mind boggling.

If you don't want an abortion dont have one. If you have an ego complex which means you think you have a right to dictate what every other woman should do may I suggest counselling and therapy.

The mother's life is in danger every time she becomes pregnant. Placenta praevia can kill the mother. Eclampsia can kill the mother. PPH can kill the mother. An abusive partner can kill the mother. There have been cases recorded where pregnant women have carried ectopic pregnancies to viability and then given birth via CS.

My point is not that the mother's life being in immediate danger justifies her accessing an abortion. My point is your emotive language. Is it a fertilised egg or an embryo or a foetus or a baby? Forced-birthers claim it's a baby from the moment of conception, and that pro-choicers are calling it anything else to pretend to themselves that they are not murderers. So which it is? If a woman carrying an ectopic pregnancy chooses to abort, are she and her HCPs compassionate carers, or murderers?

If they don't want "it" or cannot provide for "it" they can give it up for adoption. The child can then grow up and have a life.

I believe American wait times for therapy are much lower than ours.

How many children have you adopted?

Yeah, because forcing women to act as human incubators is definately the answer.

I don't see killing the unborn child as an answer if the pregnancy won't kill the mother and the child be will be born healthy.

I read a very sad case in the US where the dad was banging on the doors of the abortion clinic crying and sobbing and yelling "please don't do it". Very sad.

My DS is adopted.

I don’t know where your ‘it’ quote is coming from - I referred to a child? As a birth mother and adoptee (you are more likely to end up as a birth mother as an adoptee) who worked within the area of adoption for over a decade I am at least awarethat no matter how dismissive and contemptuous your glib comment is in the real world adoptees, birth mothers and adoptive parents are much more alive to the traumas embedded within the adoption process.

Then I am shocked that you are so blase at suggesting many many more children go through the trauma of adoption as if its nothing at all

Good for you. Don't have an abortion then.

Other people do see it as an answer or in many cases the only way out. You don't get to make that decision for them.

So many forced birthers keep saying the baby will be adopted. In the case, there must be no children in care then. Since am they must have all been adopted. No?

Oh that’s right. It doesn’t matter once the baby is born. As long as it’s born. Then it can grow up in poverty, hate and abuse